Discussion:
Hypnorape/Hypnofetish: Two Reasons To BAN High School Stage Hypnosis
(too old to reply)
Ray Gordon
2005-09-29 20:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Hypnofetish/Hypnorape: Two Reasons To BAN High School Stage Hypnosis

NOTE: before you consider the words of "certified hypnotherapists" or
anything less than an actual medical doctor, consider that it was but a few
short years ago that a CAT was able to get these certifications:
http://www.dreichel.com/dr_zoe.htm. Even though they now check to ensure
that humans are applying (by photo ID), the problem of "reciprocity" in
recognizing the credentials of other organizations persists.

It is currently a common practice in America's high schools for stage
hypnosis shows to be held at prom nights, grad nights, or even school
assemblies. Since most high schools receive federal funding, since
attendance at school is mandatory (with attendance at extracurricular
activities strongly encouraged), and since minors are in attendance at these
shows, ensuring that it is proper to hold them is without question in the
public interest. That the hypnotic state is a powerful one is not in
dispute, while the degree of power that comes with the state is disputed
even at the highest levels of research into hypnosis. Current evidence,
however, indicates that it may indeed be possible to use hypnosis to coerce
someone outright, but even if it is not possible, a secondary concern -- the
hypnofetish -- is sufficient to justify an all-out ban on stage hypnosis
shows where minors might be in attendance, especially if this is through
their schools.

Hypnosis is a unique science, more artistic and less quantifiable than most
scientific phenomena, but it is scientific nonetheless. It was likely
discovered when, a long time ago, someone noticed that while talking to
another person, the person began responding to their words as if they were
commands, and, intelligent creatures that we are, this process was refined
to the point where the hypnotic state could be intentionally induced in a
subject. Anyone who has seen a stage hypnosis show is well aware of what
happens to a person who is hypnotized: their sense of reality is strongly
altered by the hypnotist, to the point where they will generally do whatever
they are told, and to where they can often be made to hallucinate, literally
seeing that which is not there. Often, after awakening from hypnosis, the
subject has little or no memory of what transpired, and since we tend *not*
to forget what happens to us (at least not on such a large scale), that only
further underscores the concept of hypnosis as a highly altered state of
consciousness, more powerful even than drugs or alcohol, since most people
remember what they did while high or drunk (even if the memories are
somewhat fuzzy).

IS HYPNORAPE POSSIBLE?
The notion of "hypnorape" (raping someone after hypnotizing them to
eliminate their resistance) is a controversial one because of the mantra
repeated time and again by many hypnotists:

"All hypnosis is self-hypnosis. You can't be made to do anything while
under hypnosis that you would not ordinarily do."

This sounds reassuring, and it's what we *want* to hear, because the notion
of hypnosis as a "social WMD" that would allow one person to so thoroughly
influence and even brainwash another individual is upsetting. Nevertheless,
we see evidence that this is going on in our society, by some of the
otherwise incredulous, self-destructive behavior that people engage in,
often blaming the "influence" of another. Some even use more direct hints,
saying they were "under a spell" or what not. Is hypnosis the only way this
type of control can be achieved? Of course not: cults use everything they
can to control their rank and file, but this does not mean that hypnosis is
not one of the tools that is used, or that used by itself, by someone
sufficiently competent.

Hypnotists expect the debate to end with their all-hypnosis-is-self-hypnosis
claim, but a proper investigator would attempt to find the answer for
himself or herself before allowing anyone to "hypnotize" them into believing
something based solely on the statements of a third party who may or may not
have a hidden agenda. A better approach is to start from scratch, with an
open mind, and consider everything you find on the subject.

Many who claim that control is not possible with hypnosis simply lack the
ability to gain it. They will often claim that this is impossible because
it is impossible *for them.* This, however, does not mean that it is
impossible. For it to be possible, on the other hand, a few elements must
be present:

1. The hypnotist must be sufficiently talented.

2. The hypnotist must be motivated to gain control.

3. The subject must have his or her guard down in order to sufficiently
trust the hypnotist.

This has a few implications:

1. The claim that all-hypnosis is self-hypnosis is designed to get subjects
to let their guard down.

2. A malicious hypnotist has a definite interest in misinforming a subject
expressly for this purpose. This is why we cannot take the claim at face
value, as hypnotists who lack talent are speaking for themselves, while
those who have talent are not going to admit it because they don't want the
subject's guard to go up.'

3. If you buy into the belief that all-hypnosis is self-hypnosis, then if
someone claims they were raped by someone who hypnotized them (i.e., where
they were hypnotized into having sex against their will), then by
definition, you are calling the alleged victim a liar.

Recently, two arrests have been made involving "hypnorape." In the first
case, a Connecticut hypnotherapist pled guilty to reckless endangerment and
breach of the peace, for which he served a 90-day sentence (as part of the
agreement he also agreed not to practice and to be deported, which is likely
why the state did not seek more aggressive punishment) after being charged
with raping six women he had hypnotized, and videotaped having sex with him.
Following is a link to an article about how the six victims are pushing for
stricter regulation of hypnotists:

http://www.nhregister.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14497021&BRD=1281&PAG=461&dept_id=517515&rfi=6

While high school shows themselves do not present an environment conducive
to rape, subjects who go on stage do wind up deep in hypnosis, and are much
easier to hypnotize a second time around. Thanks to the internet, a search
engine can be used for any "hypnogroupies" from the show to search for the
hypnotist on the web, where the damage can then be inflicted after the
critical first step of initial hypnosis is completed at the show. Many high
school (and other) stage subjects do not find out until it is too late
(i.e., after they have been hypnotized) just how powerful the hypnotic state
is, and can wind up craving a repeat performance by the hypnorapist, which
plays right into his or her hands (this is not gender-specific, and in fact
a gay or lesbian hypnopredator can operate even further under this radar as
they would not be suspected).

An even more compelling "hypnorape" case has been working its way through
the courts in Florida. In that case, a Florida doctor was charged with
raping a woman he had hypnotized. The victim stated in news articles that
she was unable to stop what was happening, and that she "would have gotten
out of there if [she] could have." In a very unusual move, the court in
that case rejected a plea-bargain that would have resulted in THREE
misdemeanor convictions which would have resulted in the loss of the
Defendant's medical license and up to *fifteen* years in prison. See the
following link for more information:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:FNbYH6VsOjAJ:www1.naplesnews.com/npdn/pe_editorals/article/0,2071,NPDN_14961_2650774,00.html+%22Alan+Ira+Richman%22+bargain&hl=en

A quote from the article is very revealing:

"The Fort Myers-based judge looked down from the bench on Wednesday, took
note of the plea bargain that would have removed a felony count from a
doctor charged with sexually assaulting a hypnotized woman patient in 2000,
and halted the downgrade to three misdemeanors. The latter would have
brought probation and the loss of the doctor's license; a felony conviction
could have brought up to 15 years in prison."

That the doctor was willing to accept up to ***fifteen*** years in prison
without going to trial speaks for itself, but even more compelling is that
the Florida court did not dismiss the charges, because they would have done
that if the court had held that hypnosis was not a possible instrument of
rape (you wouldn't charge someone with "spoon rape" because rape with a
spoon is not possible). What this means is that a court of law in Florida
has held that hypnosis *can* be used to rape someone, regardless of the
outcome of this case.

Another article, entitled "Hypnotist Assaults Student at Northwestern U.
Library," can be found at this link:

http://www.libraryjournal.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA329013&display=breakingNews

From the article: "Northwestern University police have reportedly launched
an investigation and increased patrols after several students reported they
were hypnotized by an unidentified man in the university library. At least
one of those students has claimed she was sexually assaulted."

Until the recent rape charges outlined above were brought, hypnotists would
often smugly dismiss any notion of hypnorape by stating that if it were
possible, "someone would have been arrested for it by now." Indeed, two
individuals have, despite the difficult nature of proving these charges.
God only knows how many other hypnorape victims fear coming forward due to
concerns about retaliation or not being believed. I can relate to the fear
of retaliation, because no less than a half-dozen members of the "internet
hypnosis community" have threatened me with violence (or even death) if I
continue speaking out. Dozens more routinely defame me, harass me, or make
intrusive contacts into my daily life, such as to my potential employers.

On the internet, claims of hypno-rape or other abuses involving hypnosis are
commonplace. Prior to Yahoo! shutting down its chatrooms, several women
(and some men) have claimed to be victims of hypnotic abuse, sometimes at
the hands of a stage hypnotist who perform in high schools.

Experiments involving hypnosis as an instrument of mind control are not new.
The book "Hypnosis: Questions And Answers" has an article entitled "Can
Hypnotized Patients Be Made To Do Anything?" In that article, the work of
Dr. George Esterbrooks was cited, where he concluded that while direct
manipulation was not easy, it was very easy to first convince the subject
that they were performing a benign act (such as firing a gun loaded with
blanks as part of a movie shoot) in order to get them to violate their own
moral code. Those who say that hypnotic subjects will not violate their
moral code ignore the "loophole" that one's moral code can be first altered
through hypnosis, or use the circular argument after the fact that their
moral code would have allowed the conduct anyway. In Estabrooks's
experiments, however, even military subjects were made to attack their
superior officers, something few of them would have done consciously.

In the article which can be found at the following link:

http://www.whale.to/b/bowart3.html

Dr. Estabrooks is quoted as having said in 1950 that "I can hypnotize a
man -- ****without his knowledge or consent*** -- into committing treason
against the United States." The CIA has since officially disowned this
research, but as stated earlier, it is in the best interest of any hypnotist
seeking mind control to convince their subjects that it is not possible so
that they let down their guard. It is not as if the CIA is exactly
straightforward about anything, let alone something this explosive. Many
documents relating to their research into mind control remain classified to
this day under the guise of "national security."

The internet is full of websites which offer to teach the user how to
perform covert hypnosis for the purposes of seduction. A simple search for
terms like "hypnotic seduction" or "NLP seduction" will lead you to many
places which claim explicitly that this is possible to accomplish with
minutes of what appears to be a normal conversation. Some NLP seduction
"gurus" have even made video demonstrations that show skeptical women
winding up tranced out.

The issue of hypnorape is a controversial one, and not so simply resolved as
many hypnotists would like the public to believe, since the potential for
abuse would cast a pall upon their business and hurt their revenue.

THE HYPNOFETISH
Even if hypnorape were not a concern, the existence of the "hypnofeitish" is
more than enough justification for banning high-school stage hypnosis. The
hypnofetish community has thrived on the internet, as those who have it and
who practice erotic hypnosis have never had a way to communicate under
society's radar as they do now. A search for "erotic hypnosis,"
"hypnodomme" or "hypnofetish" will show dozens or even hundreds of websites
offering erotic hypnosis, hypnodomination, or other hypnotic services
(usually phone hypnosis or audio/video recordings) related to the fetish.

By definition, a stage hypnotist with a hypnofetish will become sexually
aroused by the sight of his or her subjects, something which is unacceptable
when the audience consists of underage schoolchildren, many of whom will
find their own fetishes triggered by the stage hypnosis show, even if the
show itself is g-rated (since the hypnosis itself is the source of the
arousal). I know of at least one high-school stage hypnotist who routinely
participates in erotic-hypnosis chats on the web, and yet another who offers
hypnodomination services through her website.

Just as we wouldn't allow a sex show at a high school, we shouldn't allow
any stage hypnosis shows because to at least some members of the audience
(and in many cases the hypnotist himself or herself), the show will carry
with it a strong and very foreseeable sexual connotation, one which will
catch unsuspecting first-time subjects by surprise.

The Department of Education has the power to ban high-school stage hypnosis.
I urge those who share these concerns to contact them and urge them to take
action. A lawsuit seeking an injunction barring stage hypnosis shows at
high schools is also in the works. Until such time as that case is filed, I
urge those reading this public-domain article to contact school
administrators, parents' associations, and student groups to make them aware
of the risks they are placing in front of our children.

Ray Gordon
DrEvilHypnosis
2005-09-29 22:05:21 UTC
Permalink
< TRASH! >
OVERRULING Ray Gordon


The following is a TROLL FAQ.
It will be updated, occasionally, and as suggested.


It will be reposted at least once to each new thread "Ray Gordon" opens



on this troll.


Its purpose is to answer, briefly AND COMPLETELY, all questions this
TROLL's topic may raise in the minds of the naive. Readers who are
actually interested in Hypnosis should, instead, read the unofficially
official multi-part FAQ generously donated to this NG by Roy Hunter.
This is fluff, merely meant for the curious.


Q: What's UPDATE I about? What's this about a cat getting certified?

A: No actual cats were certified during the creation of this myth. An
already certified hypnotherapist, finding himself an extraordinarily
unnotable person, seeking scandal, engaged himself in a little IDENTITY
FRAUD. The cat didn't get certified. The certified hypnotherapist
became a cat.

Me-ow!


Q: Is there a videotape of someone being raped
under hypnosis?


A: No, there is not. The filming of an amateur fetish-pornography
tape was interrupted by a spat between some of the actresses being
filmed. Although the film was *about* hypnosis, and the amateur
leading the orgy was, indeed, "certified" by the otherwise prestigious
National Guild of Hypnotists, charges against him were dropped, in
favor of lesser offences. (Any of the regular posters want to give me
a web-point to the update to the original "salacious scandal" report?


Q: What's UPDATE II about? Is there a court-case of someone being
raped under hypnosis?


A: Not one that's been decided. The case in question has lots of
discrepancies in it. Poor reporting. There'll be lots of discussion
of this case, later, after it has been decided, but there are a couple
of things to know: it is the DEFENCE that she was under hypnosis at
the time of the rape. The defence attorney's plea is that since she
apparently WAS under hypnosis, then, therefore, she had given explicit
consent (which lessens the crime to common "professional rape", where a

doctor has an illicit but consensual relation with a client, which is
forbidden by law.) The State does not dispute that hypnosis is
incompatable with rape. It AGREES that hypnoss and rape cannot,
happen together - it merely feels it has enough evidence to
proceed ANYWAY, and declined to bargain his plea to lesser charges. It

is unfair to speculate on what the State's presentation might be - so
we'll leave you to guess. By reading this FAQ, you might have some
ideas, yourself.


Q: In the real Hypnosis FAQ, it says "All Hypnosis is Self Hypnosis."
But if someone was raped under hypnosis, how can that be?


A: Nobody has ever been raped, under hypnosis. When a hypnotized
person is pressured into an act that violates their personal standards,

(we all have them, and they all differ, and "rape" is always a
violation, by definition,) the result is that they wake up. Period.
100% of the time. Instantaneously. Nothing can be done to keep them
under hypnosis, and no force in the Universe can restore them to
hypnosis until their trust has been satisfied.


Q: Ok, but what if someone was under hypnosis and SAID it was rape.
Is she lying?


A: Yes, maybe. But more likely, she was in another, trancelike state
of mind SIMILAR TO BUT DIFFERENT FROM hypnosis. Psychologists often
call these dissassociative states "Fuge states," and they are natural
mental defences against pain and threat that cannot otherwise be coped
with. It is a notorious fact about hypnosis that the hypnotee is often

the last person to be able to tell when they are IN or OUT of hypnosis
... despite the fact that they (or rather, their moral system,) remains

under complete and final control. So in that case, the fact may be the

reverse: it WAS rape, but she was NOT under hypnosis. Hypnosis is a
COOPERATIVE state of mind - rape is a NONCOOPERATIVE state of mind.
It's as simple as that.


Q: WHAT??? ARE YOU SAYING THAT A WOMAN WOULD LIE ABOUT BEING RAPED???



A: The FBI has statistics on that, not me.


Q: Ok, but what I'm getting at is: can't a woman be hypnotized and
then seduced, and made to think she liked it?


A: When a woman is seduced, then she WILL like it ( unless your
performance is poor.) When a woman is seduced, she is not being raped.

Being under hypnosis rarely gives you any advantage in seducing a
woman. ( Or maybe you prefer to beleive it does - in which case, call
me, and I'll charge you to teach you how I do it ( Now you know why
they call me "Evil"! ))


Q: Who's the guy who posted http://www.dangers-of-hypnosis.co.uk? Is
he well regarded?


A: He's regarded as little more than a bitter kook, who was
unsuccessfull in practicing hypnosis. He has no further credentials I
am aware of.


Q: Is it "well known to those with firsthand experience, it is much
easier to misuse hypnosis on someone who has been "hypnotized" into
letting their guard down by being told that there is no danger."


A: No. There's no literature suggesting this. It's more akin to your

neighbor telling you not to lock your house when you leave for
vacation, because he'll "keep an eye on it." Millions of people make
this mistake, every year. You'd think we'd know better, but we don't.
It's probably because most of us DO want to believe "people are
inherently good," and "my friend isn't a COMPLETE idiot!" Usually,
these things ARE true, but you can't and shouldn't rely on them.


Q: Should I trust my 14 year-old daughter to a stage hypnotist?


A: You should NOT trust your 14 year-old daughter, under ANY
circumstances! She has her own ideas, by now.


Q: Do some stage hypnotists hang out in chatrooms devoted to the
discussion of its uses in dominance and submission?


A: People in those chat rooms say they are all sorts of things. Ray
Gordon occasionally says he's a girl. He also says he's a hypnotist.
Neither is true. Don't worry about what other adults are doing with
their private lives - worry about what your 14 year old daughter is
doing when she's not at school.


Q: So it's safe to let her watch - or maybe even participate in a
stage-hypnosis demo at school?


A: At least you know they're at school! They are being monitored at
all times by administrators and teachers who are TERRIFIED of being
sued for the smallest thing! Your school clears all its performers, in

advance, and doesn't let strange adults wander around the campus
without background checks. (If it does, take your children out of this

school IMMEDIATELY! They are in grave danger!)


Q: Does "Ray Gordon" know a hypnotist who performs on the high school
circuit has a web domain that is registered to a "dominatrix" who uses
hypnosis for erotic purposes and control?


A: No, he most certainly does not. Ask him to identify this person,
and you'll find out he makes nothing but excuses.


Q: Has "Ray Gordon" had his life threatened over this posting?


A: Suuuure! My name is Doctor Evil Hypnosis, you know me from the
Austin Powers movies, (Evil was my only name,) and I'm going to send an

army of my hypnotized FemBots over to his house, RIGHT NOW, to gun him
down in cold blood, using the machine guns I have mounted in their
jumblies! No ... he just likes to start fights, and then chickens out,

when someone takes his challenge. He's invited ME to fisticuffs in a
boxing ring, on TWO different occasions - only to turn yellow on BOTH
occasions when I agreed. Immediately following this, he made vague
threats about coming after me in an alley, with a machine-gun, instead
(because he can't face me in a manly way.) He is also on record as
threatening children and unmarried women with bludgeoning and other
actions leading to painful death. Do the math.


Q: Has "Ray Gordon" had his businesses interfered with?


A: It's impossible to purposefully interfere with a business when we
can not even be sure he HAS one! He has a business licence. Nobody
knows much more about it. Nobody here really cares, as his business is

off-topic to this group, and limited to spamming it.


Q: So has he been defamed?


A: I'm sure you're questioning his sanity by now, yourself. The facts

of his actions speak for themselves.


Q: If I buy into such lies or harassment am I a "useful idiot" to you
in that I react as you hope I will.


A: What? Is that what Ray's been saying? Well, it speaks for itself,

I guess! Hee, hee!


Q: Enough about that creep for now. Do Stage hypnotists have special
training in hypnosis which makes this process a very powerful weapon in

their hands, a weapon which can be can be abused to create severe
damage and destruction


A: If there were, everyone in this News Group wants to know who and
where it's being taught. ( Actually, it's called "Evil Hypnosis" --
it's my own private discovery -- I am a genius, after all. I'll let
you in on the secret if you pay me enough. Shhh! Contact me
privately. Pretend it's a joke! )


Q: Do our highschool students have no choice but to participate in
these shows?


A: That's what "Study Hall" was invented for -- hm -- so I guess the
answer is "no, they do not." Just kidding.


Q: If they go to study hall, instead, don't they risk demonstrating,
in front of their peers, that they are anti-hypnosis?


A: No, they are demonstrating that they are geeks ... and everyone by
now knows that geeks grow up, learn computers, and rule the world!
It's not like we're talking about children refusing to recite the
Pledge of Allegience, or pray to some Heathen God or something! Tell
Mr. Gordon to "get real."


Q: Tell me about the several experiments, such as those done by
Estabrooks, which have demonstrated "that once someone is in the
clutches of a deep hypnotic trance, they CAN be made to do things which

violate their moral code (such as grabbing at poisonous snakes or
comitting crimes)"


A: Sure. It's a lie. First, Estabrooks, himself, never performed any

of those experiments - he was a well respected POPULAR WRITER on
hypnosis, but it's recognized that he wasn't a very good theorist.
Such experiments HAVE BEEN performed, however, and hypnosis does not
have any appreciable effect goes beyond the "Obedience to Authority"
experiments on NON-hypnotized compliance, reported by Dr. Stanly
Milgrom. In other words; people do lots of stupid, self-destructive
things. Especially when they're TOLD to do them by someone they take
to be in a position of authority. They don't do them any more (and
some will argue, appreciably LESS) because of hypnosis than they do
without any hypnosis at all.


Q: As the internet proliferates, however, more and more stories of
hypnosis abuse are surfacing,


A: No. They remain pretty few and far between. And when you do hear
of them, it's like UFO reports: hoaxes, misidentification of known
phenomena, and reports too nebulous to use. ( Oh, and in Ray's case,
you can include "hallucination" as a source. )


Q: How about one outlined in a recent lawsuit against a New York
therapist, who is said to have hypnotized a man into signing over
millions of dollars to him while deep in trance.


A: The fellow in question was rich, and crazy, and had been "shopping
therapists." The therapist who happened to be seeing him when he
FINALLY ran out of money took his blame, despite evidence he'd been
performing these acts for years, and had been looking for validation.
As I recall, nothing came of that case. Like I said ... few and far
between.


Q: How does "Ray Gordon" know so much about hypnodommes?


A: He thinks he is one.


Q: ???


A: Yeah. He likes to play a woman in chatrooms and Emails. He's been

"outted" for it, several times. Most people spot him pretty quickly
(I'm happy to say!) He's also on record for BLACKMAILING several men
he chatted with, while pretending to be a "hypnodomme." Nice guy, eh?


Q: Is hypnosis like a drug high? Is there any evidence of this?


A: No. Brain-scans of people on hypnosis and people on drugs show
MARKEDLY different responses. Hypnosis is not addicting - it's just
fun. Fun is addicting. Stay away from fun. You hear me? Stop all
that fun, right now!

I *mean* it!


Q: Aren't some people more succeptable than others? Isn't it
dangerous to them? Can't they become "addicted" to hypnosis?


A: They're not in any less personal control, because of depth
(although they may prefer to FEEL that they are.) Nobody's ever
documented a case of Hypno-addiction. And although there's plenty of
"evidence" of sex-addiction, aerobics-addiction, and internet-addiction



-- you have to just start drawing a line on personal responsibility,
somewhere!


Q: Comment on: "Applied to high school stage hypnosis, you have a
powder-keg of danger which can explode anytime a high school hires a
stage hypnotist. A predatory hypnotist, say a pedophile, has a gold
mine of opportunity to commit his (or her) crimes, without ever being
detected by anyone except the victim, and only then when it is too
late. The innocent setting of a high school doesn't shield the mostly
underage student body from abuse, nor does the innocent nature of most
high school shows. The predatory hypnotist is given access to the
minds of the student body via these shows, and that is a sufficient
"hook" to begin the process of abuse."


A: It's called "FLORID PROSE". It's also called "RABID RANTING."
(And "LIVID LACUNAE" comes to mind.) In High School Logic, it's
called something like "The Effect leading the Cause" (I forget the
Latin, actually. Maybe some help from the other regulars on this?)
This is, after all, Ray's favorite personal fantasy - one which he can
(thankfully) never personally experience - so he gets to frothing at
the mouth about it -- then he thinks it sounds like perfectly reasoned
speech, (as well as a perfectly reasonable scenerio!)


Q: Is there a well-documented hypnosis FETISH?


A: No, not in Psychology. In fact, adult fantasies, or "Fetishes,"
are no longer considered unnatural in Psychology. Worry about these
things is a hangover from the Puritan days, and reflects quasi
religious confusion about healthy sexual expression. Nobody cares.


Q: Well ... can a high school hypnosis show serve as a conduit by
which a percentage of the audience is likely to have this fetish
unmasked.


A: No. This goes back to the official NG FAQ: a hypnotized person
cannot be made to reveal any personal secrets.


Q: Are fetishes "triggered", later in life?


A: There's been a lot of science that's gone into that question. Then

simple answer is "NO." Your sexual orientation seems to be a mystery,
but is completely unrelated to ANY lifehood experiences. In other
words, whether you are gay or straight, turned on by hypnosis or
lingerie, it's pretty much predetermined, and cannot be shaped, primed
or changed by any technique.


Q: Are fetishes "catalysed"?


A: =Sigh= ... Ray just doesn't seem to KNOW the DEFINITION of
"triggered", "catalysed", "conditioned" or "planted" ... does he?
Those words all contradict one another. What an oxymoron. Well, you
WILL find that Ray has demonstrated, on MANY occasions, that he cannot
use or understand simple English. It is clear he is reaching for a
vocabulary which is beyond his comprehension.


Q: Is a high-school stage hypnosis show is no more than a PG-rated
BDSM show fully equipped with whips and chains?


A: No. That costs too much, and the School District usually didn't
earn enough at the last bake-sale to pay for it.


Q: But can't those subjects become easy prey for the predatory,
experienced hypnotist, anyway?


A: Yeah. Later. After they graduate, get a job, and can afford the
whips and chains themselves. The answer is just don't let your 14 year

old child grow up! Keep having 14th Birthdays, and don't let them EVER

graduate High School! Best to keep plastic slip-covers over them, too.



AND NO FUN!!!


Q: Why does "Ray Gordon" know so much about pedophiles and statutory
rapists, how they think, and how they would like to operate?


A: I think you know the answer to that, by now, don't you? The answer

is "yes."


Q: Isn't "Ray Gordon" really just speaking out to protect the safety
of our children?


A: Since, in other posts, WHICH YOU CAN FIND ON GOOGLE, he has
threatened to beat such children to death with a blunt instrument,
laughed at their pain, actively cursed them to hell, and offered to
dance on their graves -- this seems highly unlikely, doesn't it?


Q: I do accept that all hypnosis is self-hypnosis, but don't I have to

acknowledge the potential for abuse in the high school setting, as this

would set the stage for the abuser to target his or her victims without

anyone, including the victims, being any the wiser.


A: Most children are abused by members of their own family. They have

access. Strange stage hypnotists a child saw at school do not.


Q: I assume the hypnotist has been screened for things like a criminal

background ... but "Ray Gordon" says most are not! What's he know that

I don't?


A: His posting history will show that Ray doesn't get out of his
house, much. He has no such knowledge. HOWEVER ... if you find that
your school is just letting strangers wander around, without properly
checking them out ( as I said before ) PULL YOUR CHILD OUT OF THAT
SCHOOL! IT IS A DANGER!


Q: I like this line: "Once the abusive stage hypnotist has
conditioned his or her subjects, the first step of the crime has been
completed."


A: Me too! It's one of his best examples of both FLORID PROSE, and
putting the effect in front of the cause. My mother reads Murder
Mystery novels. She loves them. If she read a line like that, she'd
slam the book down!


Q: How about ' the "second crime scene" '??? And ' Lambs, led to the

slaughter ' ???


A: Oh, please! It was funny, the first time! Now he's just
straining!


Q: OK, well, hypnotic amnesia does confuse me. If someone doesn't
remember something ... ?


A: Hypnotic Amnesia, like every other form of hypnotic compliance, is
a willing act on the part of the hypnotee. When they decide to stop
actively "forgetting", full normal memory comes back instantly.


Q: Ok, but if someone does something to you you don't like ...


A: You will wake up instantly, with full memory, and no other
suggestions you were given will have any power over you (unless you
choose it to.)


Q: Well, I'm still not convinced, a recent article regarding "hypnotic

assault" (these were reported to the authorities) can be found at
http://www.libraryjournal.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA32....



In this article, a HARVARD psychologist was quoted as saying: "Hypnosis

can be strong enough to overpower someone during a sexual assault,"
According to the psychologist, some crimes, including at least two
murders, have been linked to suggestions given under hypnosis."


A: The Harvard Psychologist was interviewed separately, and indicated
this interview, provided by Ray, quotes her out of context, MISquoting
her, and that the original reporter did not fully understand her
exposition, at all. In other words, what you're reading is a case of
lousy science reporting. Like all that hullabaloo about "Cold Fusion."

Nothing but a Tempest in a Test-Tube.


Q: So why does "Ray Gordon" keep making all these wild suppositions,
when so MUCH of it has been shown to be factually incorrect, and the
REST of it is simple nonsense? What he says is "I have been promoting
awareness of hypnosis abuse," but he will not listen to reason. What
gives?


A: Ray claims to be mentally ill. Many mental illnesses are
"refractory" to hypnosis, meaning simply that they don't respond at
all, or don't respond right. Hypnosis can inadvertantly bring on a
psychotic attack in a paranoid or certain other personality disorders.


Ten years ago, Ray appeared in this group, claiming he had been
hypnotized by some girl he met online, but she had somehow failed to
bring him out "right." ( If you read the offical NG FAQ, you will find

that just leaving a person ALONE is the general remedy for people who
have trouble awakening.) He demanded that every hypnotist in the world

send him free copies of their induction, so he could "cure himself".
He also PROMISED to sue her, but the statute of limitations caused him
to fail in that a loooong time ago.


Since then, he has convinced himself he has self-learned hypnosis from
the four books he has read, and believes he is simply the world's
greatest hypnotist, (except for me.) He also believes he is CFO of a
multi-million dollar E-Business; An Olympic Gymnasium Trainer; a
Psychic; The Only Begotten Son of God (or God, I get confused,) and he
has professed any number of other psychotic fantasies, over the years.


He's 40-something. He's never held down a "real" job in his life. He
is apparently supported by his mother, whom he lives with. He values
his "publishing" business, whereat he appearst to take in overflow
typing from the local courthouse ( oh, RIGHT! He also considers
himself a fully competent paralegal, on par with ANY lawyer with a
degree and admittance to the Bar. )


He's never been to college, and he can't remember where he graduated
High School. His last noteworthy achivement of any real merit was an
honorable mention for his progress in chess - and that was over 20
years ago. He is a frivilous litigant, having sued, literally HUNDREDS

of people and instutions, for literally BILLIONS of dollars ... and as
you might guess, after 10 years ... he has not won in one single
solitary case.


The Federal Court Judge recently calle his writings "incomprehensable",

his attempt to process his case diamissed for "inexcusable failure,"
and the judge ended by calling him a "disingenuous" liar.


What's his REAL motivation?


He doesn't have one.


" If you're asking me my PROFESSIONAL opinion, as Ship's Counselor ...
'EEEE's NUTS !!! "
" I'll make sure I note it in my log! "
-- Lt Cmdr Diana Troy & Cmdr Riker / Star Trek, Generations


"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful."
-- Anton Szandor LaVey
mstrhypno
2005-09-30 16:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Gordon
Hypnofetish/Hypnorape: Two Reasons To BAN High School Stage Hypnosis
NOTE: before you consider the words of "certified hypnotherapists" or
anything less than an actual medical doctor, consider that it was but a few
http://www.dreichel.com/dr_zoe.htm.
Addressed and CORRECTED almost TEN YEARS AGO.
Post by Ray Gordon
It is currently a common practice in America's high schools for stage
hypnosis shows to be held at prom nights, grad nights, or even school
assemblies. Since most high schools receive federal funding, since
attendance at school is mandatory (with attendance at extracurricular
activities strongly encouraged),
SNIP! WRONG! MOSt high school stage shows are sponsored by PARENTS
GROUPS that receive NO federal funding, hence the DOE has NO
jursidiction over them.
Post by Ray Gordon
Hypnosis is a unique science, more artistic and less quantifiable than most
scientific phenomena, but it is scientific nonetheless. It was likely
discovered when, a long time ago, someone noticed that while talking to
another person, the person began responding to their words as if they were
commands, and, intelligent creatures that we are, this process was refined
to the point where the hypnotic state could be intentionally induced in a
subject. Anyone who has seen a stage hypnosis show is well aware of what
happens to a person who is hypnotized: their sense of reality is strongly
altered by the hypnotist, to the point where they will generally do whatever
they are told, and to where they can often be made to hallucinate, literally
seeing that which is not there. Often, after awakening from hypnosis, the
subject has little or no memory of what transpired, and since we tend *not*
to forget what happens to us (at least not on such a large scale), that only
further underscores the concept of hypnosis as a highly altered state of
consciousness, more powerful even than drugs or alcohol, since most people
remember what they did while high or drunk (even if the memories are
somewhat fuzzy).
False. Memory lass from drugs or alcohol is often extremely difficult
to impossible to recover from. Hypnotic amnesia is extremely EASY to
overcome, in fact, in most cases (see Hilgard, et. al. Tart, Barber,
Erickson or Watzlwick for cites) hypnotic amnesia is a short term
effect, lasting hours, or, at most only a few days.
Post by Ray Gordon
IS HYPNORAPE POSSIBLE?
The notion of "hypnorape" (raping someone after hypnotizing them to
eliminate their resistance) is a controversial one because of the mantra
"All hypnosis is self-hypnosis. You can't be made to do anything while
under hypnosis that you would not ordinarily do."
This sounds reassuring, and it's what we *want* to hear, because the notion
of hypnosis as a "social WMD" that would allow one person to so thoroughly
influence and even brainwash another individual is upsetting.
SNIP - The idea that a one time hypnosis show is analogous to cultic
control techniques is facially idiotic. See any major work on cultic
control for refutation, including the works published by the Cult
Awareness Network and the Center fot the Study of Religious Movements.
Cultic control takes place over prolonged periods of time and involves
socialization processes, nutritional imbalances, often sleep
deprivation and long periods of indoctrinational "teaching" periods.
This is simply NOT possible in a single, one-hour stage hypnosis show.
The poster is showing a massive level of ignorance about both topics by

such statements.
Post by Ray Gordon
Many who claim that control is not possible with hypnosis simply lack the
ability to gain it.
Here we have a statement with NO support behind it. A claim that, on
the face, SOUNDS believeable, yet has nothing to support it in
scientific literature or in experimental fact.
Post by Ray Gordon
They will often claim that this is impossible because
it is impossible *for them.*
Another classic example of an argument where he states something that
claims something that cannot be proven.
Post by Ray Gordon
This, however, does not mean that it is
impossible. For it to be possible, on the other hand, a few elements must
According to WHAT source?
Post by Ray Gordon
1. The hypnotist must be sufficiently talented.
2. The hypnotist must be motivated to gain control.
And WHY would a 40-something (the average age of a stage hypnotist in
the United states that works these shows, according to a survey done by

the National Association of College Associations, sample size, their
entire membership of over 150 hypnotists working the market) WANT to
risk their CAREER doing something like this?
Post by Ray Gordon
3. The subject must have his or her guard down in order to sufficiently
trust the hypnotist.
1. The claim that all-hypnosis is self-hypnosis is designed to get subjects
to let their guard down.
Or because it is true.
Post by Ray Gordon
2. A malicious hypnotist has a definite interest in misinforming a subject
expressly for this purpose. This is why we cannot take the claim at face
value, as hypnotists who lack talent are speaking for themselves, while
those who have talent are not going to admit it because they don't want the
subject's guard to go up.'
When one considers that the claim is also backed up by many clinical
psychologists, who have the experimental and research materials to back

up their assertions (see the citations above), the reason that the
assertion has been made is because it could also be true!
Post by Ray Gordon
3. If you buy into the belief that all-hypnosis is self-hypnosis, then if
someone claims they were raped by someone who hypnotized them (i.e., where
they were hypnotized into having sex against their will), then by
definition, you are calling the alleged victim a liar.
Or that the victim confused the immobility caused by a panic response,
known as tonic immobility (noted in other posts that I've made in here)

with the hypnotic state. of course, according to the Department of
Justice, there IS a significant of alleged rape "victims" who actually
ARE liars and who have attempted to use the excuse of "I was hypnotized

to have sex" to justify their claim of rape in the past. None of them
have succeeded.
Post by Ray Gordon
Recently, two arrests have been made involving "hypnorape." In the first
case, a Connecticut hypnotherapist pled guilty to reckless endangerment and
breach of the peace, for which he served a 90-day sentence (as part of the
agreement he also agreed not to practice and to be deported, which is likely
why the state did not seek more aggressive punishment) after being charged
with raping six women he had hypnotized, and videotaped having sex with him.
Following is a link to an article about how the six victims are pushing for
http://www.nhregister.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14497021&BRD=1281&PAG=...
One should also note that the convictions were NOT for rape while the
victims were in hypnosis. A VERY important thing to realize. One
should also note that the cases occurred in a therapeutic setting and,
later in a private home. A VERY different situation than a stage
hypnosis show and that the case has NOTHING to do with stage hypnosis
at all.
Post by Ray Gordon
While high school shows themselves do not present an environment conducive
to rape,
This is the crux of the entire post. It is NOT conducive in the least
as the students are monitored entirely before, during and after the
shows and the hypnotist, in almost every case, is hundreds of miles
away by the next day, making a rape scenario impossible.
Post by Ray Gordon
An even more compelling "hypnorape" case has been working its way through
the courts in Florida. In that case, a Florida doctor was charged with
raping a woman he had hypnotized. The victim stated in news articles that
she was unable to stop what was happening, and that she "would have gotten
out of there if [she] could have." In a very unusual move, the court in
that case rejected a plea-bargain that would have resulted in THREE
misdemeanor convictions which would have resulted in the loss of the
Defendant's medical license and up to *fifteen* years in prison. See the
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:FNbYH6VsOjAJ:www1.naplesnews.com...
"The Fort Myers-based judge looked down from the bench on Wednesday, took
note of the plea bargain that would have removed a felony count from a
doctor charged with sexually assaulting a hypnotized woman patient in 2000,
and halted the downgrade to three misdemeanors. The latter would have
brought probation and the loss of the doctor's license; a felony conviction
could have brought up to 15 years in prison."
That the doctor was willing to accept up to ***fifteen*** years in prison
without going to trial speaks for itself, but even more compelling is that
the Florida court did not dismiss the charges, because they would have done
that if the court had held that hypnosis was not a possible instrument of
rape (you wouldn't charge someone with "spoon rape" because rape with a
spoon is not possible). What this means is that a court of law in Florida
has held that hypnosis *can* be used to rape someone, regardless of the
outcome of this case.
Actually, the State of Florida cannot hold that hypnosis can be used as

an instrument of rape, as I cited in the relevant statute, earlier in
this newsgroup (alt.hypnosis). It is NOT listed as an incapacitating
agent. The Judge ruled based on the violation of client therapist
trust. The poster did NOT do the proper amount of follow up research
to determine this.
Post by Ray Gordon
Another article, entitled "Hypnotist Assaults Student at Northwestern U.
http://www.libraryjournal.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA32...
From the article: "Northwestern University police have reportedly launched
an investigation and increased patrols after several students reported they
were hypnotized by an unidentified man in the university library. At least
one of those students has claimed she was sexually assaulted."
If the poster HAD followed up, he would have discovered that the
investigation had determined that the incidents were part of a HOAX.

SNIP on his claims of threats to himself. He's claimed this for years,

but, if you Google it, you will find that his uniform response to these

threats has been either "you don't have the balls," or a threat of suit

which is never followed through. In NO case have ANY of the alleged
"threats" EVER been acted upon by ANYONE. Hence, their viability AS
threats is obviously nonexistent.
Post by Ray Gordon
On the internet, claims of hypno-rape or other abuses involving hypnosis are
commonplace. Prior to Yahoo! shutting down its chatrooms, several women
(and some men) have claimed to be victims of hypnotic abuse, sometimes at
the hands of a stage hypnotist who perform in high schools.
Internet chat rooms are not quality places for evidence. One can also
find claims of Elvis being present, and the poster has claimed to be an

underage female looking to be hypnotized at various times, by his OWN
admission!
Post by Ray Gordon
Experiments involving hypnosis as an instrument of mind control are not new.
The book "Hypnosis: Questions And Answers" has an article entitled "Can
Hypnotized Patients Be Made To Do Anything?"
Ah, yes! Carla Emry! The woman with a "doctorate" from a university
that you do not have to attend and who allowed her to use the title
before she "earned" it from them! The book that claims the "case" of
Svengali and Trilby as REAL PROOF of hypnosis abuse. So much for THAT
book, folks! DuMaurier's book Trilby was a work of pure fiction!
Post by Ray Gordon
In that article, the work of
Dr. George Esterbrooks was cited, where he concluded that while direct
manipulation was not easy, it was very easy to first convince the subject
that they were performing a benign act (such as firing a gun loaded with
blanks as part of a movie shoot) in order to get them to violate their own
moral code.
Which has NO bearing on having sex with someone. It is just as easy to

trick someone in the waking state to do the same thing.
Post by Ray Gordon
Those who say that hypnotic subjects will not violate their
moral code ignore the "loophole" that one's moral code can be first altered
through hypnosis, or use the circular argument after the fact that their
moral code would have allowed the conduct anyway. In Estabrooks's
experiments, however, even military subjects were made to attack their
superior officers, something few of them would have done consciously.
Obviously, the poster has never been IN the military! Given a good
enough excuse, there are a lot of GI's who wouldn't mind taking a poke
at their C.O.'s. In fact, there's even a play titled "the Fragging"
about the murder of a superior officer during Viet Nam. nd it wasn't
the only time or place that such a thing has happened.
Post by Ray Gordon
http://www.whale.to/b/bowart3.html
Dr. Estabrooks is quoted as having said in 1950 that "I can hypnotize a
man -- ****without his knowledge or consent*** -- into committing treason
against the United States." The CIA has since officially disowned this
research, but as stated earlier, it is in the best interest of any hypnotist
seeking mind control to convince their subjects that it is not possible so
that they let down their guard. It is not as if the CIA is exactly
straightforward about anything, let alone something this explosive. Many
documents relating to their research into mind control remain classified to
this day under the guise of "national security."
Estabrooks admitted that he was part of the MKULTRA program to develop
mind control technology for the CIA in the 1940's and 1950's and also
admitted to being part of the disinformation campaign during the Cold
War as well. Connect the dots, folks, as NO experimentation that
followed his statements bore out his assertions at all.
Post by Ray Gordon
The internet is full of websites which offer to teach the user how to
perform covert hypnosis for the purposes of seduction. A simple search for
terms like "hypnotic seduction" or "NLP seduction" will lead you to many
places which claim explicitly that this is possible to accomplish with
minutes of what appears to be a normal conversation. Some NLP seduction
"gurus" have even made video demonstrations that show skeptical women
winding up tranced out.
Again, seduction is NOT rape and NLP is not hypnosis. The poster
really needs to purchase a dictionary.
Post by Ray Gordon
The issue of hypnorape is a controversial one, and not so simply resolved as
many hypnotists would like the public to believe, since the potential for
abuse would cast a pall upon their business and hurt their revenue.
Nor is it as simplistic as the poster would have the reader believe,
either.
Post by Ray Gordon
THE HYPNOFETISH
Even if hypnorape were not a concern, the existence of the "hypnofeitish" is
more than enough justification for banning high-school stage hypnosis. The
hypnofetish community has thrived on the internet, as those who have it and
who practice erotic hypnosis have never had a way to communicate under
society's radar as they do now. A search for "erotic hypnosis,"
"hypnodomme" or "hypnofetish" will show dozens or even hundreds of websites
offering erotic hypnosis, hypnodomination, or other hypnotic services
(usually phone hypnosis or audio/video recordings) related to the fetish.
As the poster, himself, is an admitted member of the hypnofetish
community, he is really showing his true colors in this post. His web
page has sold and, later given away a hypnotic domination recording by
a so-called "hypno-dominatrix!" By moving to ban stage hypnosis
shows, he would be forcing the market to come to HIM for their "fix" as

he has stated on earlier occasions that the fetish is already present
in many students and as he notes below.
Post by Ray Gordon
By definition, a stage hypnotist with a hypnofetish will become sexually
aroused by the sight of his or her subjects, something which is unacceptable
when the audience consists of underage schoolchildren, many of whom will
find their own fetishes triggered by the stage hypnosis show, even if the
show itself is g-rated (since the hypnosis itself is the source of the
arousal). I know of at least one high-school stage hypnotist who routinely
participates in erotic-hypnosis chats on the web, and yet another who offers
hypnodomination services through her website.
Again, he makes an assertion, yet fails to act on something that he
asserts is a real and present danger to the safety and welfare of our
children! he claims to know, personally, of TWO hypnotists who are
"hypnofetishists!" Yet he REFUSES to "blow the whistle" on them! Why?

If he is SO concerned with the safety of these children - WHY doesn't
he ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, instead of yowlping about it on an
internet newsgroup?
Post by Ray Gordon
Just as we wouldn't allow a sex show at a high school, we shouldn't allow
any stage hypnosis shows because to at least some members of the audience
(and in many cases the hypnotist himself or herself), the show will carry
with it a strong and very foreseeable sexual connotation, one which will
catch unsuspecting first-time subjects by surprise.
By this logic, we should not allow ANY shows, of ANY kind at ANY
school. According to Kinsey, and supported by Hite, EVERY show will
have a sexually arousing effect on at least some percentage of any
audience at some point. This obvious and forseeable sexual
connotation, whether it be high heels on a teacher in a filmstrip
presentation on frogs or a person seen smoking on an anti-tobacco movie

shown in health class, by his logic, because some student will become
sexually excited, these programs should be banned, especially as they
are designed to convince the students to alter their behaviors!
Post by Ray Gordon
The Department of Education has the power to ban high-school stage hypnosis.
I urge those who share these concerns to contact them and urge them to take
action. A lawsuit seeking an injunction barring stage hypnosis shows at
high schools is also in the works. Until such time as that case is filed, I
urge those reading this public-domain article to contact school
administrators, parents' associations, and student groups to make them aware
of the risks they are placing in front of our children.
Ray Gordon
Again, the DOE, in many situations, does NOT have the ability to ban
stage hypnosis shows as such shows are sponsored and paid for by
PARENT's GROUPS which receive NO federal funding, whatsoever and that
said shows often take place off campus, where school administrations
hold little to no authority over the events.

As to the individual who posted this screed, take a look at one of his
recent profiles on AOL and make up your own mind about his credibility:

Name Ray Gordon
Location Philadelphia, PA.
Gender Male
Marital Status
Single Dominant Male. Run away little girl.

Hobbies & Interests
Teaching clueless nice guys how to seduce beautiful women; teaching
beautiful women how to avoid the men I teach. Also seeking writers
for electronic publishing ventures. Current priority is first-person
accounts from attractive women about dating and relationships. I pay a
50 percent royalty.

Occupation
Internet publisher and multimedia producer. I teach wealthy men how to
select the right women, and I teach super-hot women how to snag
wealthy, desirable men. Educating the poor simply does not pay. I
also do paid psychic readings and laugh at people who want freebies.

Personal Quote
Although I figure most women on AOL are ugly and desperate, there are
exceptions. If you are one of those exceptions, I *might* talk to you,

IF you follow my rules: 1) be 18-24 years old; 2) GORGEOUS; 3) no
obstacles (boyfriends, parents, other chick crap); 4) have a picture
and send it; 5) have a working telephone (not a cell) and send me your
number by e-mail; and 6) have an interest in hypnosis or bellydance
(preferably both) or be willing to learn (for dance, you have to be a
trained dancer to begin with). ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NO EXCEPTIONS!!
give preference to women who are in SAG or whose work (and pics) I can
find on the web. I am on the internet to develop my publishing
business, not mess around. If there's no one interesting to talk to, I

just do my work, but I'll drop it for the right lady.

-----------------------------------------

Would YOU want YOUR legislators or school administrators to listen to
ANYTHING sent to them by someone who feels about women as he has
expressed in the above profile?

It's your call, readers. The words are his.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
Marciadp
2005-09-30 22:30:57 UTC
Permalink
On September 29, 2005, Gordon Roy Parker, in the transparent guise of
Ray Gordon, Usenet Problem Child, desperate for ANY attention and
notoriety that he can get, posted his usual rant regarding his sorry
misconceptions and stage hypnosis fantasies. This was 11 days after his
last rant. Wow! Gordon had claimed he will post this rant every other
Sunday. This time, it was less than two weeks. Last time it was a
month. Therefore, he lied, although his absence was a pleasant break.
Not getting enough attention, Gordon? A lie is still a lie, no matter
how often you post it.

As noted many many times, the answer to this post is, "No, Gordon, they
do not rape kids. That is your imagination. That is YOUR sick fantasy."


His rant is a lie ... we know it is a lie... and until he provides
credible proof, which he is unable to do, it will stay regarded as a
lie. Gee, isn't that the definition of disingenuous, being a liar?
Isn't that what the judge wrote about you, Gordon? Liar.

Can you say hyperbole? That's right, I knew you could. As Lee Darrow
said on August 10, 2004, "Well, once again, the Little Boy Who Cried
"Hypnorape" is playing at his favorite fantasy again. No support, no
proof, no names, dates, times or places. No surprise, either. Put up or
shut up, Ray" Where's the proof, Gordon? The cases you cited are not
judged, and in this country we are presumed innocent until determined
guilty (or disingenuous). Nor did the cases cited related to stage
hypnosis.

Gordon claimed, "The stage show can expose them to hypnosis and trigger
the fetish. Most stage hypnotists have websites and are easy to locate
thereafter, if they don't hook up after the show." Really, Gordon?
Prove it. Prove it with ONE police report. Can't, can you? Liar. He
talks about potential and fetishes. (Makes you wonder about his track
record with gymnastics and Dominique Moceneau.) Just because he
perceives a "potential" does not make it so. Potentials are not
actualities, Gordon.

With an ever-increasing inability to post anything original, and
unwilling to take no for an answer and accept clinical refutations to
his claims, Gordon Roy Parker, self-proclaimed "authority" on hypnosis
(among other things) has once again 'ctrl-C'd, ctrl-V'd' his sadly
delusional fantasy/wish fulfillment regarding stage hypnosis and school
performances, attempting to attack the professionalism of stage
hypnotists.

This foolish, noisome pseudo-information has been posted yet another
time (the Neverending Story, so to speak). Once again, Gordon offers no
proof, no specific instances of what he claims, but instead attempts to
resort to scare tactics. He has been offered a $10,000 "prize" to
provide said proof regarding stage hypnotists and high school
performances, but is unable to provide anything. We would welcome a
documented example of what he claims, but that is not forthcoming. He
gloats about a cat able to get a hypnosis certification. Gordon,
think. The cat didn't do it. The cat can't write. The cat's owner
did it; the cat had nothing to do with it. The incident is well noted.
So what? Can you EVER read or write coherently?

He has cited a case about a hypnotherapist in Connecticut. Gordon, if
you could actually read the court transcript about the case you
reference, the person did not seduce the women while they were in
hypnosis. Try reading to the end of the article, for a change.

Your second reference was a web site that has been shown to be set up,
photos faked from other sources, and the person who set up the web site
is not known as a hypnotist. Your spin fails, once again.

For someone who claims to be a "genius" Gordon has a problem in reading
for content. He looks for the sensational to prove his theories, but
never reads to the end of the article to discover the actual
information.

Gordon's references to research are easily disproved. His reference to
Dr. Barrett has been refuted. His claims regarding Estabrooks have been
refuted.

His claims of "special training" for stage hypnotists that enable
"severe damage and destruction in high school students' minds" are
laughable. Mind Control 101? How very foolish. There is NO special
training for mind control. His lack of formal hypnosis training and
dwelling in his own fantasies are evident. His understanding of
hypnosis lies in fantasy and myth, and evidently nothing to prove to
the contrary will shake his mistaken ideas.

For the record, high school stage hypnotists do not rape children. Not
ONE instance has ever been reported to police or school authorities.
Read that again, Gordon. Not ONE instance has ever been reported to
police or school authorities. Schools do not force students to attend
hypnosis shows; the hypnotist is escorted at all times; and the shows
are well-attended by both faculty and parents. Speaking of potentials
does not make it so. The misconceptions and myths stated in the posting
border on the ludicrous. He just doesn't get it. Seemingly, he never
will. One has to wonder how pathologically jealous he is of someone
that can make a living doing hypnosis on stage.

Interestingly enough, now he employs the "poor me, victim" tactic. He
claims that people who rush to his defense (name two) are harassed,
etc. Sure. Believe it. IF this is the case, prove it. He says he has
received death threats. He's claimed that since 1996 at least, and he
is still here. Amazing. At no time does he ever mention the threats
and harassment he has made over the years to others. That doesn't
count. How about wishing death on a child, Gordon, or threatening to
call CPS? How about accusing someone of pimping her daughters to get
people to attack you? And best of all, you claiming you were Jesus in
a prior life? When it comes to you, Gordon, no sympathy is extended.
Poor you? Yeah, right.

More and more, Gordon is on the outside looking in, and hasn't a clue.

This time around, we have a winner! Paul Knight guessed October 3.
Paul, you did it again! Congratulations. The "Close But No Cigar"
award is presented to CFB01, Carl, who guessed October 14, and no, it
was not a death threat, Gordon. Honorable mention goes to Lee Darrow,
who guessed October 16. Note that since Gordon said he will post this
drivel every other Sunday, the rules of the contest have been based on
both date and time. Of course, since Gordon is disingenuous, consider
that he usually lies; use that as a variable in your estimates. All of
you take that into consideration when posting your guess.

For your prediction on the next instance of this silliness being
posted, please reply to this posting with the date and time that you
wish.

Normally, I would post Gordon's latest profile from AOL, but have
received an implied threat if I do. Suffice it to say, in the latest
profile, amongst many laughable comments, he claims to be a single
dominant male, and that little girls should run away. Right. He also
claims to be an internet publisher and multimedia producer. Uh-huh. He
also claims he can teach "wealthy" men how to select women. How many
have you found, Gordon?


Marcia
DrEvilHypnosis
2005-10-01 00:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Hm ... he's still riding pretty close to the moon, but his cycle is
increasing. He must be swinging into another manaic phase of his well
advertized disorder! I don't know whether to stake out the First
Quarter or the Full Moon! I'm not sure he can WAIT that long before
his next plea for attention!

Ahh ... just give me my usual:
20:14 hrs 17 Oct 2005, Universal Coordinated Time.

Boo!

Um, hey, guys - he's been crossposting to a lot of unrelated newsgroups
--and they seem to be utterly ignoring him -- do we want to start
trimming our followup headers before the people at
alt.radio.talk.dr-laura start coming over here to learn a little
smattering of psychology???
Post by Marciadp
On September 29, 2005, Gordon Roy Parker, in the transparent guise of
Ray Gordon, Usenet Problem Child, desperate for ANY attention and
notoriety that he can get, posted his usual rant regarding his sorry
misconceptions and stage hypnosis fantasies. This was 11 days after his
last rant. Wow! Gordon had claimed he will post this rant every other
Sunday. This time, it was less than two weeks. Last time it was a
month. Therefore, he lied, although his absence was a pleasant break.
Not getting enough attention, Gordon? A lie is still a lie, no matter
how often you post it.
As noted many many times, the answer to this post is, "No, Gordon, they
do not rape kids. That is your imagination. That is YOUR sick fantasy."
His rant is a lie ... we know it is a lie... and until he provides
credible proof, which he is unable to do, it will stay regarded as a
lie. Gee, isn't that the definition of disingenuous, being a liar?
Isn't that what the judge wrote about you, Gordon? Liar.
Can you say hyperbole? That's right, I knew you could. As Lee Darrow
said on August 10, 2004, "Well, once again, the Little Boy Who Cried
"Hypnorape" is playing at his favorite fantasy again. No support, no
proof, no names, dates, times or places. No surprise, either. Put up or
shut up, Ray" Where's the proof, Gordon? The cases you cited are not
judged, and in this country we are presumed innocent until determined
guilty (or disingenuous). Nor did the cases cited related to stage
hypnosis.
Gordon claimed, "The stage show can expose them to hypnosis and trigger
the fetish. Most stage hypnotists have websites and are easy to locate
thereafter, if they don't hook up after the show." Really, Gordon?
Prove it. Prove it with ONE police report. Can't, can you? Liar. He
talks about potential and fetishes. (Makes you wonder about his track
record with gymnastics and Dominique Moceneau.) Just because he
perceives a "potential" does not make it so. Potentials are not
actualities, Gordon.
With an ever-increasing inability to post anything original, and
unwilling to take no for an answer and accept clinical refutations to
his claims, Gordon Roy Parker, self-proclaimed "authority" on hypnosis
(among other things) has once again 'ctrl-C'd, ctrl-V'd' his sadly
delusional fantasy/wish fulfillment regarding stage hypnosis and school
performances, attempting to attack the professionalism of stage
hypnotists.
This foolish, noisome pseudo-information has been posted yet another
time (the Neverending Story, so to speak). Once again, Gordon offers no
proof, no specific instances of what he claims, but instead attempts to
resort to scare tactics. He has been offered a $10,000 "prize" to
provide said proof regarding stage hypnotists and high school
performances, but is unable to provide anything. We would welcome a
documented example of what he claims, but that is not forthcoming. He
gloats about a cat able to get a hypnosis certification. Gordon,
think. The cat didn't do it. The cat can't write. The cat's owner
did it; the cat had nothing to do with it. The incident is well noted.
So what? Can you EVER read or write coherently?
He has cited a case about a hypnotherapist in Connecticut. Gordon, if
you could actually read the court transcript about the case you
reference, the person did not seduce the women while they were in
hypnosis. Try reading to the end of the article, for a change.
Your second reference was a web site that has been shown to be set up,
photos faked from other sources, and the person who set up the web site
is not known as a hypnotist. Your spin fails, once again.
For someone who claims to be a "genius" Gordon has a problem in reading
for content. He looks for the sensational to prove his theories, but
never reads to the end of the article to discover the actual
information.
Gordon's references to research are easily disproved. His reference to
Dr. Barrett has been refuted. His claims regarding Estabrooks have been
refuted.
His claims of "special training" for stage hypnotists that enable
"severe damage and destruction in high school students' minds" are
laughable. Mind Control 101? How very foolish. There is NO special
training for mind control. His lack of formal hypnosis training and
dwelling in his own fantasies are evident. His understanding of
hypnosis lies in fantasy and myth, and evidently nothing to prove to
the contrary will shake his mistaken ideas.
For the record, high school stage hypnotists do not rape children. Not
ONE instance has ever been reported to police or school authorities.
Read that again, Gordon. Not ONE instance has ever been reported to
police or school authorities. Schools do not force students to attend
hypnosis shows; the hypnotist is escorted at all times; and the shows
are well-attended by both faculty and parents. Speaking of potentials
does not make it so. The misconceptions and myths stated in the posting
border on the ludicrous. He just doesn't get it. Seemingly, he never
will. One has to wonder how pathologically jealous he is of someone
that can make a living doing hypnosis on stage.
Interestingly enough, now he employs the "poor me, victim" tactic. He
claims that people who rush to his defense (name two) are harassed,
etc. Sure. Believe it. IF this is the case, prove it. He says he has
received death threats. He's claimed that since 1996 at least, and he
is still here. Amazing. At no time does he ever mention the threats
and harassment he has made over the years to others. That doesn't
count. How about wishing death on a child, Gordon, or threatening to
call CPS? How about accusing someone of pimping her daughters to get
people to attack you? And best of all, you claiming you were Jesus in
a prior life? When it comes to you, Gordon, no sympathy is extended.
Poor you? Yeah, right.
More and more, Gordon is on the outside looking in, and hasn't a clue.
This time around, we have a winner! Paul Knight guessed October 3.
Paul, you did it again! Congratulations. The "Close But No Cigar"
award is presented to CFB01, Carl, who guessed October 14, and no, it
was not a death threat, Gordon. Honorable mention goes to Lee Darrow,
who guessed October 16. Note that since Gordon said he will post this
drivel every other Sunday, the rules of the contest have been based on
both date and time. Of course, since Gordon is disingenuous, consider
that he usually lies; use that as a variable in your estimates. All of
you take that into consideration when posting your guess.
For your prediction on the next instance of this silliness being
posted, please reply to this posting with the date and time that you
wish.
Normally, I would post Gordon's latest profile from AOL, but have
received an implied threat if I do. Suffice it to say, in the latest
profile, amongst many laughable comments, he claims to be a single
dominant male, and that little girls should run away. Right. He also
claims to be an internet publisher and multimedia producer. Uh-huh. He
also claims he can teach "wealthy" men how to select women. How many
have you found, Gordon?
Marcia
CFB01
2005-10-03 22:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marciadp
On September 29, 2005, Gordon Roy Parker, in the transparent guise of
Ray Gordon, Usenet Problem Child, desperate for ANY attention and
notoriety that he can get, posted his usual rant regarding his sorry
misconceptions and stage hypnosis fantasies. This was 11 days after his
last rant. Wow! Gordon had claimed he will post this rant every other
Sunday. This time, it was less than two weeks. Last time it was a
month. Therefore, he lied, although his absence was a pleasant break.
Not getting enough attention, Gordon? A lie is still a lie, no matter
how often you post it.
As noted many many times, the answer to this post is, "No, Gordon, they
do not rape kids. That is your imagination. That is YOUR sick fantasy."
His rant is a lie ... we know it is a lie... and until he provides
credible proof, which he is unable to do, it will stay regarded as a
lie. Gee, isn't that the definition of disingenuous, being a liar?
Isn't that what the judge wrote about you, Gordon? Liar.
Can you say hyperbole? That's right, I knew you could. As Lee Darrow
said on August 10, 2004, "Well, once again, the Little Boy Who Cried
"Hypnorape" is playing at his favorite fantasy again. No support, no
proof, no names, dates, times or places. No surprise, either. Put up or
shut up, Ray" Where's the proof, Gordon? The cases you cited are not
judged, and in this country we are presumed innocent until determined
guilty (or disingenuous). Nor did the cases cited related to stage
hypnosis.
Gordon claimed, "The stage show can expose them to hypnosis and trigger
the fetish. Most stage hypnotists have websites and are easy to locate
thereafter, if they don't hook up after the show." Really, Gordon?
Prove it. Prove it with ONE police report. Can't, can you? Liar. He
talks about potential and fetishes. (Makes you wonder about his track
record with gymnastics and Dominique Moceneau.) Just because he
perceives a "potential" does not make it so. Potentials are not
actualities, Gordon.
With an ever-increasing inability to post anything original, and
unwilling to take no for an answer and accept clinical refutations to
his claims, Gordon Roy Parker, self-proclaimed "authority" on hypnosis
(among other things) has once again 'ctrl-C'd, ctrl-V'd' his sadly
delusional fantasy/wish fulfillment regarding stage hypnosis and school
performances, attempting to attack the professionalism of stage
hypnotists.
This foolish, noisome pseudo-information has been posted yet another
time (the Neverending Story, so to speak). Once again, Gordon offers no
proof, no specific instances of what he claims, but instead attempts to
resort to scare tactics. He has been offered a $10,000 "prize" to
provide said proof regarding stage hypnotists and high school
performances, but is unable to provide anything. We would welcome a
documented example of what he claims, but that is not forthcoming. He
gloats about a cat able to get a hypnosis certification. Gordon,
think. The cat didn't do it. The cat can't write. The cat's owner
did it; the cat had nothing to do with it. The incident is well noted.
So what? Can you EVER read or write coherently?
He has cited a case about a hypnotherapist in Connecticut. Gordon, if
you could actually read the court transcript about the case you
reference, the person did not seduce the women while they were in
hypnosis. Try reading to the end of the article, for a change.
Your second reference was a web site that has been shown to be set up,
photos faked from other sources, and the person who set up the web site
is not known as a hypnotist. Your spin fails, once again.
For someone who claims to be a "genius" Gordon has a problem in reading
for content. He looks for the sensational to prove his theories, but
never reads to the end of the article to discover the actual
information.
Gordon's references to research are easily disproved. His reference to
Dr. Barrett has been refuted. His claims regarding Estabrooks have been
refuted.
His claims of "special training" for stage hypnotists that enable
"severe damage and destruction in high school students' minds" are
laughable. Mind Control 101? How very foolish. There is NO special
training for mind control. His lack of formal hypnosis training and
dwelling in his own fantasies are evident. His understanding of
hypnosis lies in fantasy and myth, and evidently nothing to prove to
the contrary will shake his mistaken ideas.
For the record, high school stage hypnotists do not rape children. Not
ONE instance has ever been reported to police or school authorities.
Read that again, Gordon. Not ONE instance has ever been reported to
police or school authorities. Schools do not force students to attend
hypnosis shows; the hypnotist is escorted at all times; and the shows
are well-attended by both faculty and parents. Speaking of potentials
does not make it so. The misconceptions and myths stated in the posting
border on the ludicrous. He just doesn't get it. Seemingly, he never
will. One has to wonder how pathologically jealous he is of someone
that can make a living doing hypnosis on stage.
Interestingly enough, now he employs the "poor me, victim" tactic. He
claims that people who rush to his defense (name two) are harassed,
etc. Sure. Believe it. IF this is the case, prove it. He says he has
received death threats. He's claimed that since 1996 at least, and he
is still here. Amazing. At no time does he ever mention the threats
and harassment he has made over the years to others. That doesn't
count. How about wishing death on a child, Gordon, or threatening to
call CPS? How about accusing someone of pimping her daughters to get
people to attack you? And best of all, you claiming you were Jesus in
a prior life? When it comes to you, Gordon, no sympathy is extended.
Poor you? Yeah, right.
More and more, Gordon is on the outside looking in, and hasn't a clue.
This time around, we have a winner! Paul Knight guessed October 3.
Paul, you did it again! Congratulations. The "Close But No Cigar"
award is presented to CFB01, Carl, who guessed October 14, and no, it
was not a death threat, Gordon. Honorable mention goes to Lee Darrow,
who guessed October 16. Note that since Gordon said he will post this
drivel every other Sunday, the rules of the contest have been based on
both date and time. Of course, since Gordon is disingenuous, consider
that he usually lies; use that as a variable in your estimates. All of
you take that into consideration when posting your guess.
For your prediction on the next instance of this silliness being
posted, please reply to this posting with the date and time that you
wish.
Normally, I would post Gordon's latest profile from AOL, but have
received an implied threat if I do. Suffice it to say, in the latest
profile, amongst many laughable comments, he claims to be a single
dominant male, and that little girls should run away. Right. He also
claims to be an internet publisher and multimedia producer. Uh-huh. He
also claims he can teach "wealthy" men how to select women. How many
have you found, Gordon?
Marcia
We're going to take aim at Oct. 15, early am for the next one.

(And NO, that was not a death threat!)
--
Carl ***@earthlink.net



Research is a formalized curiosity. It is poking
and prying with a purpose.
Zora Neale Hurston

Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never
regains it's original dimension.
Oliver Wendall Holmes

Only a fool tests the depth of the water with
both feet.
African Proverb

Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Albert Einstein

What would life be if we had no courage
to attempt anything?
Vincent Van Gogh
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