Discussion:
PREDICTION: US troops will not attack Falluja until the FIRST OF MAY.
(too old to reply)
K***@home.com
2004-04-23 16:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Bush and Rummy want to keep the body count of dead Americans down for the rest
of April.
Anyone want to bet against this?
Daniel Packman
2004-04-23 16:25:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by K***@home.com
Bush and Rummy want to keep the body count of dead Americans down for the rest
of April.
Anyone want to bet against this?
Why do you think April is so important?
I thought it all rides on reelection in November.
--
Daniel Packman
NCAR/ACD
***@ucar.edu
A. Dulles Soberes
2004-04-24 18:34:12 UTC
Permalink
All US citizens who are elgible to vote should be required to see the
pictures at the following two sites, so that they'll know what their
politicians have done with their (and future generations) tax
dollars.
"This is a war against people who have no guilt in killing innocent
people. That's what they're willing to do." Georgie, 4-13-2004

I guess this is what he said on camera. But he didn't say he is any
better or has to be better. So I guess these are just casualties of
war or "collateral damage," a war that he alone started but should not
be held responsible for, in his mind's eye. Sigh... Do you expect HIM
to be any better?
Pictures of Destruction in Iraq
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html
http://www.empirenotes.org/
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/05/1356248
offense." http://thirdcoastactivist.org/
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org
=================================
"Man must change or die. There is no other course."
The World Teacher http://www.share-international.org
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,472023,00.html?cnn=yes

Have you forgotten that invading Iraq has nothing to do with the
culprits who perpetuated 9/11?
=======================================================
ADS

"This is a hard country to defend... Our intelligence is good. It's
just never perfect, is the problem... But it is in a big country,
Burl. I'm from Texas. It is difficult to stop people coming across the
Rio Grande River, whether they be people looking for work or people
looking to do harm." -- Georgie, Washington D.C., 4-21-2004

"He (George Herbert Walker Bush) is the wrong father to appeal to for
advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of
strength." -- Georgie in an interview with Bob Woodward, 60 minutes,
4-18-2004

"Others hug but having committed the troops, I've got an additional
responsibility to hug and that's me and I know what's it is like." --
Georgie

"So what's the difference? (between Weapons of Mass Destruction Vs
'programs' of WMD)" -- Georgie, 12-16-2003, 272 days after the quest
for the head of his family's enemy began

"I mean [pause]... afterall [semi-pause], this (Saddam) is a guy that
tried to kill my dad." Georgie, 9-26-2002, in a fund raising function
for GOP Senate Hopeful John Cornyn in Houston, 380 days after the
tragedy of 911 where he revealed his true intention on his meaning in
a speech on "terrorism"


"We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September
11." --Georgie, 9-17-2003, 181 days after the Invasion of Iraq began

"Yes, I think, first of all, remember I just said we've been there for
**90** days since the cessation of major military operations. Now, I
know in our world where news comes and goes and there's this kind of
instant--instant news... But it's going to take time for us to gather
the evidence and analyze the mounds of evidence, literally, the miles
of documents that we have uncovered."
-- Georgie, 7-30-2003 Rose Garden Press Conference, in response to the
question asking whether Georgie had "some definitive" links for the
Saddam-Al Qaeda claims before the Iraqi Invasion (apparantly, Georgie
was still on his fishing expedition 90 days after the invasion)


"Throughout the 20th century, small groups of men seized control of
great nations built armies and arsenals and set out to dominate the
weak and intimidate the world. In each case, their ambitions of
cruelty and murder had no limit. In each case, the ambitions of
Hitlerism, militarism, and communism were defeated by the will of free
peoples.."
-- Georgie, SOTU 2003


"I am a patient man, and when I say I am a patient, I means I am a
patient man."--Georgie
Lord Samuel
2004-04-24 21:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Dulles Soberes
"This is a war against people who have no guilt in killing innocent
people. That's what they're willing to do." Georgie, 4-13-2004
I guess this is what he said on camera. But he didn't say he is any
better or has to be better.
Um he most certainly IS better, and implying otherwise is asinine.
ZZBunker
2004-04-25 01:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Dulles Soberes
All US citizens who are elgible to vote should be required to see the
pictures at the following two sites, so that they'll know what their
politicians have done with their (and future generations) tax
dollars.
"This is a war against people who have no guilt in killing innocent
people. That's what they're willing to do." Georgie, 4-13-2004
I guess this is what he said on camera. But he didn't say he is any
better or has to be better. So I guess these are just casualties of
war or "collateral damage," a war that he alone started but should not
be held responsible for, in his mind's eye. Sigh... Do you expect HIM
to be any better?
The US military has perfect control of the contractors,
given that DoD, and not the branches of the US military,
The White House, or the CIA, is ONLY US Government Agency,
that makes contracts with the contractors.
Post by A. Dulles Soberes
Pictures of Destruction in Iraq
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html
http://www.empirenotes.org/
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/05/1356248
offense." http://thirdcoastactivist.org/
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org
=================================
"Man must change or die. There is no other course."
The World Teacher http://www.share-international.org
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,472023,00.html?cnn=yes
Have you forgotten that invading Iraq has nothing to do with the
culprits who perpetuated 9/11?
=======================================================
ADS
"This is a hard country to defend... Our intelligence is good. It's
just never perfect, is the problem... But it is in a big country,
Burl. I'm from Texas. It is difficult to stop people coming across the
Rio Grande River, whether they be people looking for work or people
looking to do harm." -- Georgie, Washington D.C., 4-21-2004
"He (George Herbert Walker Bush) is the wrong father to appeal to for
advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of
strength." -- Georgie in an interview with Bob Woodward, 60 minutes,
4-18-2004
"Others hug but having committed the troops, I've got an additional
responsibility to hug and that's me and I know what's it is like." --
Georgie
"So what's the difference? (between Weapons of Mass Destruction Vs
'programs' of WMD)" -- Georgie, 12-16-2003, 272 days after the quest
for the head of his family's enemy began
"I mean [pause]... afterall [semi-pause], this (Saddam) is a guy that
tried to kill my dad." Georgie, 9-26-2002, in a fund raising function
for GOP Senate Hopeful John Cornyn in Houston, 380 days after the
tragedy of 911 where he revealed his true intention on his meaning in
a speech on "terrorism"
"We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September
11." --Georgie, 9-17-2003, 181 days after the Invasion of Iraq began
"Yes, I think, first of all, remember I just said we've been there for
**90** days since the cessation of major military operations. Now, I
know in our world where news comes and goes and there's this kind of
instant--instant news... But it's going to take time for us to gather
the evidence and analyze the mounds of evidence, literally, the miles
of documents that we have uncovered."
-- Georgie, 7-30-2003 Rose Garden Press Conference, in response to the
question asking whether Georgie had "some definitive" links for the
Saddam-Al Qaeda claims before the Iraqi Invasion (apparantly, Georgie
was still on his fishing expedition 90 days after the invasion)
"Throughout the 20th century, small groups of men seized control of
great nations built armies and arsenals and set out to dominate the
weak and intimidate the world. In each case, their ambitions of
cruelty and murder had no limit. In each case, the ambitions of
Hitlerism, militarism, and communism were defeated by the will of free
peoples.."
-- Georgie, SOTU 2003
"I am a patient man, and when I say I am a patient, I means I am a
patient man."--Georgie
RH
2004-04-25 02:46:55 UTC
Permalink
These, friends, are examples of GIC (global ignorance creep)! The
subject claims "facts" but I claim it's just plain GIC!
We know war isn't, in itself, a good thing. It happens when peaceful
means of working things out are fruitful. It's a product of mankind's
weakness. It is, however, absolutely necessary in order to attain and
maintain the security of a nation and the liberty that goes with it.
<snip>

Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism. The 9/11
terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. The ~10,000 women, children, & old
men victims were all innocent people who did nothing to hurt us. The
Bush regime justified the invasion with bad information. We should
apologize, try to pay for our errors, and get the hell out.

War is very profitable for some Americans who worship money and power.
That's why we have it. We have lots of War offices, but no Peace
offices. Peace won't feed greedy billionaires. Sadly the Iraqi people
are being terrorized by US troops - so that some american jerks can
have more money and power.

During WW2, the vast majority of the German people were totally
unaware of the Nazi's atrocities against the Jews. In 2003-4, most
Amercans are totally unaware of the US militaries atrocities against
the Iraqis.

As the soldiers know, anything that would cause extreme embarrassment
to the US Gov't if known by people without an 'official need to know'
- is classified as TOP SECRET. So, hiding organized crimes against
humanity is legal. Exposing the crimes would be illegal. The Nazi's
did the same thing. Calling the crimes necessary is another lie. Once
the lies start things go downhill. The American people are better
than the dogs that are in leadership roles. They deserve the truth.

Only the truth will set us free from war, and bloodthirsty puppets
like Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld.
Gun Woman
2004-04-25 03:22:17 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com (RH) doth postedeth:
...
Post by RH
Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism.
Lying bullshit. He was financing it and even had a training camp in northern
Iraq. Back in your spider hole Osama!
--
Gun Woman
Armed and safer
Waiting for help from 911 could take the rest of your life.
styron
2004-04-25 04:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gun Woman
...
Post by RH
Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism.
Lying bullshit. He was financing it and even had a training camp in northern
Iraq. Back in your spider hole Osama!
OBL has plenty of money and hates Saddam. The camps you refer to were in
an area Saddam did not control. Gullible folk seem to fall for this
Saddam:9/11 myth anyway. It's important to set the record straight.
--------
From a top-secret report, drafted by the National Intelligence Council
at Langley. It included an executive summary for Mr.Bush known as the
"key judgments."

The CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency and the other U.S. spy agencies
unanimously agreed that Baghdad:

had not sponsored past terrorist attacks against America,

was not operating in concert with al-Qaida,

and was not a terrorist threat to America.
-----------

Better yet, why not take Mr.Bush's own words to heart:

"We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September
the 11th."

George Bush - 17 Sep 2003
RH
2004-04-25 13:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gun Woman
...
Post by RH
Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism.
Lying bullshit. He was financing it and even had a training camp in northern
Iraq. Back in your spider hole Osama!
Another member of the 'either you're with Bush, or you're with the
terrorists'
group speaketh.

Fact of the matter is my dear Ms. Gun Woman, the US invasion and
occupation is illegal under international law. Might does not make
right. Two wrongs do not make a right. Around 10,000 innocent women,
children and old men in Iraq have been murdered with our tax dollars
in the past yr or so. Around a million Iraqi citizens were murdered
with our sanctions in the past 10 years.

Clearly many patriotic American's can't handle the truth. They don't
want to recognize that their tax dollars/military murdered thousands
of innocent people who were doing ok, before we came along with our
bombs and tanks.

The major US news media presented the invasion as if it were something
like a superbowl, a grand sporting event. The billionaire news media
owners promoted the war, because they made huge profits from it. We
brought hell to the iraqi people, so that a few super rich americans
could amass more billions. They are already obnoxiously obese with
their mountains of filthy bloody money.
The human family is dysfunctional and at war, thanks to American
billionaires.
That too will pass.

It is the truth that will set mankind free from war, tyranny and
unchecked capitalist greed.

======================================

Two pretty good sources for daily news:
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org

=================================

"Man must change or die. There is no other course."
The World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org


###
Lord Samuel
2004-04-25 17:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
the US invasion and
occupation is illegal under international law.
Sod-em was in violation of 17 UN resolutions.

FOAD!
Gun Woman
2004-04-26 02:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Post by Gun Woman
...
Post by RH
Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism.
Lying bullshit. He was financing it and even had a training camp in
northern Iraq. Back in your spider hole Osama!
Another member of the 'either you're with Bush, or you're with the
terrorists'
group speaketh.
Fact of the matter is my dear Ms. Gun Woman, the US invasion and
occupation is illegal under international law.
More BS. We're not under UN authority in this country, we're supposed to be
a sovereign nation, COMRADE!
Post by RH
Might does not make
right. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Want me to start posting idiotic cliches for you?
Post by RH
Around 10,000 innocent women,
children and old men in Iraq have been murdered with our tax dollars
in the past yr or so.
Back in the spider hole Osama! We're coming for you!
--
Gun Woman
Armed and safer
Waiting for help from 911 could take the rest of your life.
RH
2004-04-27 12:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
What Do We Do Now?
by Howard Zinn

It seems very hard for some people--especially those in high places,
but also those striving for high places--to grasp a simple truth: The
United States does not belong in Iraq. It is not our country. Our
presence is causing death, suffering, destruction, and so large
sections of the population are rising against us. Our military is then
reacting with indiscriminate force, bombing and shooting and rounding
up people simply on "suspicion."

Amnesty International, a year after the invasion, reported: "Scores of
unarmed people have been killed due to excessive or unnecessary use of
lethal force by coalition forces during public demonstrations, at
checkpoints, and in house raids. Thousands of people have been
detained [estimates range from 8,500 to 15,000], often under harsh
conditions, and subjected to prolonged and often unacknowledged
detention. Many have been tortured or ill-treated, and some have died
in custody."

The recent battles in Fallujah brought this report from Amnesty
International: "Half of at least 600 people who died in the recent
fighting between Coalition forces and insurgents in Fallujah are said
to have been civilians, many of them women and children."

In light of this, any discussion of "What do we do now?" must start
with the understanding that the present U.S. military occupation is
morally unacceptable.

The suggestion that we simply withdraw from Iraq is met with laments:
"We mustn't cut and run. . . . We must stay the course. . . . Our
reputation will be ruined. . . ." That is exactly what we heard when,
at the start of the Vietnam escalation, some of us called for
immediate withdrawal. The result of staying the course was 58,000
Americans and several million Vietnamese dead.

"We can't leave a vacuum there." I think it was John Kerry who said
that. What arrogance to think that when the United States leaves a
place there's nothing there! The same kind of thinking saw the
enormous expanse of the American West as "empty territory" waiting for
us to occupy it, when hundreds of thousands of Indians lived there
already.


The whole article is here (above is an excerpt):

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0426-06.htm
Post by RH
The major US news media presented the invasion as if it were something
like a superbowl, a grand sporting event. The billionaire news media
owners promoted the war, because they made huge profits from it. We
brought hell to the Iraqi people, so that a few super rich Americans
could amass more billions. They are already obnoxiously obese with
their mountains of filthy bloody money.
The human family is dysfunctional and at war, thanks to American
billionaires.
That too will pass.
The truth will set mankind free from war, tyranny and
unchecked capitalist greed.
======================================
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org
=================================
"Man must change or die. There is no other course."
The World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org
###
Mother Superior Mary
2004-04-27 18:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
What Do We Do Now?
by Howard Zinn
It seems very hard for some people--especially those in high places,
but also those striving for high places--to grasp a simple truth: The
United States does not belong in Iraq. It is not our country. Our
presence is causing death, suffering, destruction, and so large
sections of the population are rising against us. Our military is then
reacting with indiscriminate force, bombing and shooting and rounding
up people simply on "suspicion."
Ah, posted by the quisling propagandist!
--
Mother Superior
Obviously Superior to you.
Pastor Mary
2004-04-27 18:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
What Do We Do Now?
Who cares what some commie rag says?
D. Spencer Hines
2004-04-27 19:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Bingo!

Communists have taken to calling themselves "Progressives."

Hilarious!

They even do so in Greenwich Village -- and have been doing so for
decades.

DSH

"Pastor Mary" <***@ohgodohgod.xxx> wrote in message news:408eaa20$***@omega.dimensional.com...
| ***@yahoo.com (RH) doth postedeth:
|
| > Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
| > What Do We Do Now?
|
| Who cares what some commie rag says?

"Mother Superior Mary" <***@Catholick.com> wrote in message news:***@206.124.0.13...
| ***@yahoo.com (RH) doth postedeth:
|
| > Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
| > What Do We Do Now?
| > by Howard Zinn
| >
| > It seems very hard for some people--especially those in high places,
| > but also those striving for high places--to grasp a simple truth:
The
| > United States does not belong in Iraq. It is not our country. Our
| > presence is causing death, suffering, destruction, and so large
| > sections of the population are rising against us. Our military is
then
| > reacting with indiscriminate force, bombing and shooting and
rounding
| > up people simply on "suspicion."
|
|
| Ah, posted by the quisling propagandist!
|
| --
| Mother Superior
| Obviously Superior to you.
Fat Burns
2004-04-27 18:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
..

Are you a member of the communist party?
--
Fat Burns
G O D 'S - C R E A T O R
2004-04-27 19:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
..
Are you a member of the communist party?
Thus Spake God's Creator; (I don't forgive shit!)

What difference would it make, the U.S is
responsible for millions of people constantly dying,
and all you can think of is some republican
political party hype-bull-shit !

---------
FACT:
When U.S. Ambassador to the UN Madeleine Albright, who later would
be confirmed by the U.S. Senate as secretary of state, was asked by
60 Minutes whether the DEATHS of half a million Iraqi children had
been "worth it," her response - "I think that is a very hard choice,
but the price, we think, the price is worth it".

-------

Yesterday's Criminals are indeed, Today's Invaders, Hallelujah !
Hallelujah !! God Bless America !!! Praise the Bush family !!!!

Today's U.S. Invaders:
http://www.dbr.nu/noin/rogues.html



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GOD'S CREATION ( My only sin... )

Wise men study the unknown, and boldly seeks answers !
Others... fall on their hands and knees, and start mumbling...
RH
2004-04-28 04:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
..
Are you a member of the communist party?
No of course not. I'm very much for democracy. The problem is that it
is not possible to have a democracy, unless the people are well
informed. In the US, the people are not told the truth. We're given
massively deceptive information from our political 'leaders' and the
news media.

As everyone who's ever had a Top Secret (TS) security clearance knows,
any information that would cause the US gov't "extreme embarrassment"
if known by people without an "official need to know" - is classified
& labeled TS or higher. It becomes a felony for those who do know
certain things to tell their fellow citizens, no matter how bizarre it
may be. The supporters of that say it (the truth) would "threaten our
national security". Often the only thing that is threatened is the
public's unconditional support of our military forces, some high
ranking officer's career, or unbelieveably wasteful spending of
taxpayer's money.

The average American citizen is much more honest and ethical than some
of our very powerful and famous gov't officials. We've definetly got
some dirty rats. If the majority of the people knew only a small
fraction of the government's secrets from the last 5 or 10 years,
some powerful gov't officials would be imprisoned.

The truth will set us free from war, tyranny, and all the other things
that we'd be much better off without. Truth is, we have no business in
Iraq. That land is their land, not ours. The people there want us to
get the hell out, and that's exactly what we should do.

Unfortunately, Bush and his colleagues seem to find it impossible to
find any fault with themselves. Apparently they are so in love with
themselves that as far as their concerned, they can do no wrong.

:/
Fat Burns
2004-04-28 04:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
..
Are you a member of the communist party?
No of course not. I'm very much for democracy. The problem is that it
is not possible to have a democracy, unless the people are well
informed. In the US, the people are not told the truth. We're given
massively deceptive information from our political 'leaders' and the
news media.
You'd rather believe it from a socialist publication? What does that make
you?
Post by RH
As everyone who's ever had a Top Secret (TS) security clearance knows,
any information that would cause the US gov't "extreme embarrassment"
if known by people without an "official need to know" - is classified
& labeled TS or higher. It becomes a felony for those who do know
certain things to tell their fellow citizens, no matter how bizarre it
may be. The supporters of that say it (the truth) would "threaten our
national security". Often the only thing that is threatened is the
public's unconditional support of our military forces, some high
ranking officer's career, or unbelieveably wasteful spending of
taxpayer's money.
Or it could be the lives of our intel agents.
Post by RH
The average American citizen is much more honest and ethical than some
of our very powerful and famous gov't officials. We've definetly got
some dirty rats. If the majority of the people knew only a small
fraction of the government's secrets from the last 5 or 10 years,
some powerful gov't officials would be imprisoned.
Well bring it on then.
Post by RH
The truth will set us free from war, tyranny, and all the other things
that we'd be much better off without. Truth is, we have no business in
Iraq. That land is their land, not ours. The people there want us to
get the hell out, and that's exactly what we should do.
Which people? Did you ask them all?

It looks like the people who want us out are the Saddam loyalists, the Al
Quaeda terrorists and the shiites who want to make it an islamist state and
not a democracy. The vast majority may be glad we're there.

I'd be in favor of taking a real poll though and if the majority really do
want us out, THEN we should leave.
Post by RH
Unfortunately, Bush and his colleagues seem to find it impossible to
find any fault with themselves. Apparently they are so in love with
themselves that as far as their concerned, they can do no wrong.
Pure speculation on your part.

-
Fat Burns
know-buddy
2004-04-29 02:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
Unfortunately, Bush and his colleagues seem to find it impossible to
find any fault with themselves. Apparently they are so in love with
themselves that as far as their concerned, they can do no wrong.
Pure speculation on your part.
-
Fat Burns
Betcha can't find any stories with mention being made of
Bush/Cheney/or Rumsfeld admitting that they were wrong.

---------------------------------------------------------

As many present and former soldiers know, war crimes (or anything
else) that would cause the US gov't "extreme embarrasment" if "known
by people without an official need to know" are classified "TOP
SECRET" and hidden from the people by our gov't employees.

To talk about a war crime becomes a felony. Talk to vietnam vets, many
of them still have nightmares from war crimes that they were ordered
to participate in during Vietnam. Many of our boys in Iraq already
have the same problem.

The American people would never be supportive of such appalling
atrocities as have been commited in our name, under our flag with our
tax dollars in the past couple of years.

It is time to pull out. We shouldn't make a bad situation worse.

Soldiers with guts and brains should go on strike and refuse to
terrorize the Iraqi people anymore. They should just say no to the
dogs in the white house, unless they want to come join the troops on
the front lines!
know-buddy
2004-04-29 03:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Many vietnam vets are still plagued with nightmares from war crimes
and other atrocities that they were ordered to participate in during
Vietnam. Many of our boys in Iraq already have the same problem, with
lots of bad stuff on their conscience that will probably bug them for
the rest of their lifes.

American soldiers would be wise to go on strike and refuse to
terrorize the Iraqi people anymore. They should just say no to the
dogs in the white house, unless they want to come join the troops on
the front lines.

Sadly Bush and other politicians in the white house are puppets for
greedy billionaires who want to control the oil and amass more and
more and more money and power.

Exxon made their largest profit ever during the quarter that coincided
with the start of the Iraqi invasion. 50,000 million dollars in
profit. Their bloody money is sickening.

The American people would never be supportive of such appalling
atrocities as have been commited in our name, under our flag with our
tax dollars in the past couple of years.

It is time to pull out. We shouldn't make a bad situation worse.

00000000000000000000

Check out:

http://veteransforpeace.org

The GI Rights Hotline
(800) 394-9544
girights at objector.org

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

When I was here [in Iraq] in January, there was a pervasive atmosphere
of discontent, frustration, and anger with the occupation. But most
people were still just trying to ride it out, stay patient, and hope
that things improved. The wanton brutality of the occupation has at
long last put an end to that patience.

Before, the occupation might have succeeded -- not in building real
democracy, which was never the goal, but in cementing U.S. control of
Iraq. It cannot succeed now. The resistance in Fallujah will be beaten
down, with the commission of more war crimes; if the United States
invades Najaf, it will be able to win militarily there as well. But
from now on, no military victory will make Iraqis stop resisting.

Excerpted from:
Blogging from Bhagdad
http://www.empirenotes.org/

XXXXXXXXXX

For the most part, American corporate news industry is a cash cow for
the super rich who also own the American politicians. They want to
make more and more and more and more money, NOT to tell the people
the truth about what's going on, or to support democracy. Only the
truth will set us free from tyrants, fear, and needless bloodshed.

Two pretty good sources for daily news:

http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org

=================================

We cannot move on if we are entrapped in structures of economic or
cultural privilege. Sharing, especially in a world where most live at
or below the edge of misery, is as important and relevant as
disarmament; in fact, sharing the resources of the earth isinseparable
from the renunciation of war and violence. On such... ground, the
architecture of a new world order based on human unity will be easy to
conceive and enact." Richard Falk

============
"Without sharing there can be no justice; without justice there can be
no peace; without peace there can be no future." The World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org
Lord Samuel
2004-04-29 04:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by know-buddy
Many vietnam vets are still plagued with nightmares from war crimes
and other atrocities that they were ordered to participate in during
Vietnam.
Including this one:

http://www.insidedenver.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_2833077,00.html
In testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971,
representing Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Kerry promoted the
thesis that war crimes by American soldiers were "not isolated
incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full
awareness of officers at all levels of command." He then laid out some
of the alleged atrocities, as recounted by what he described as
"highly decorated veterans" at the Winter Soldiers Investigation
earlier that year in Detroit.

"At times," Kerry said, "they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut
off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and
turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at
civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan,
shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally
ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal
ravage of war . . ." Kerry spoke at length before the committee, and
his testimony is full of such lurid claims.

Russert played a tape in which Kerry made similar statements on Meet
the Press that year. "There are all kinds of atrocities," Kerry said
on the tape, "and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the
same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed
in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted
harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which
we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against
people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of
villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this
is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a
matter of written established policy by the government of the United
States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed
these . . . by the letter of the law - the same letter of the law that
tried Lt. Calley - are war criminals."


Say...do we want HIM as President????
know-buddy
2004-04-29 13:05:41 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:54:11 -0600, Lord Samuel <don'***@tread on me>
wrote:

<snip>
Post by Lord Samuel
Post by Lord Samuel
http://www.insidedenver.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_2833077,00.html
In testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971,
representing Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Kerry promoted the
thesis that war crimes by American soldiers were "not isolated
incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full
awareness of officers at all levels of command." He then laid out some
of the alleged atrocities, as recounted by what he described as
"highly decorated veterans" at the Winter Soldiers Investigation
earlier that year in Detroit.
<snip>

Looks like the race will be between tweedle dee and tweedle dum - I
think Kerry would be a bit better for us than Bush. Bush can claim
whatever he wants - he could even claim that he and his crew are
acting with more intelligence than a bunch of apes, but many can see
that it's simply not true. Apes operate on a much higher level.

Most soldiers are taught that a large part of the definition for TOP
SECRET is "information that would cause extreme embarrassment to the
US Gov't, if known by persons without an Official Need to Know". So
when our precision weaponry used by our "heroic" soldier boys destroys
a busload of school children, it is classified. Ask any soldier who
witnessed or took part in any of the countless atrocities and they're
obliged to tell you that "it never happened". They are required by
law to keep dark secrets for the rest of their lifes. Those secrets
can literally wreck their lifes. It's a terrible shame because most of
our soldiers are merely boys who only recently graduated from high
school.

KB

===========================================

[Goodwill's]...results on earth will be peace. It is so simple and
practical that people fail to appreciate its potency or its scientific
and dynamic effect. One person sincerely practicing goodwill in a
family, can completely change it's attitudes. Goodwill really
practiced among groups in any nation, by political and religious
parties in any nation, and among the nations of the world can
revolutionize the world....The only factor which can eventually and in
due time bring harmony and the end of these chaotic conditions, is
right human relations...

No nation can live unto itself today. If it attempts to do so it
treads the way to death, and that is the true horror of the
isolationist position...The goal is right human relations; nations
will stand or fall just in so far as they measure up to that vision.
The era ahead of us ---under evolutionary law..is to see the
establishment of right human relations...

Establish right human relations by developing a spirit of goodwill.
Then and only then shall we have a world at peace and ready to move
forward into a new and better era.

----------

Above was copied from the "The problems of humanity", by Djwhal Khul &
Alice Bailey, Lucis publishing - the book can be read online here
(for free)at: http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/problems/toc.html

World Goodwill:
http://www.lucistrust.org/goodwill/

<><><><><><><>

"There is nothing in your world, either alive or dead, that is worth
being agitated about, except the alleviation of suffering." From: "The
Boy & the Brothers"; publisher Neville Spearman, London,UK

<>

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a
thousand invisible threads, and along these sypathetic fibres our
actions run as causes and return to us as results." Herman Melville

<><><><><><><>

Interaction(non-profit orgs promoting human dignity in 165 countries)
http://www.interaction.org

<>

Democracy Now - news 'for the people'
www.democracynow.org

-------------------------------

What's very positive that is going on behind the scenes?
http://www.share-international.org
Lord Samuel
2004-04-29 16:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by know-buddy
Apes operate on a much higher level.
Moron troll.
Fat Burns
2004-04-29 03:12:57 UTC
Permalink
<know-***@hotmail.com> said as he pulled his finger from his rectum and
licked it:
[stupid crap snipped]

They should take away your computer, you terrorist supporter!
--
Fat Burns
Sock Puppet
2004-04-29 03:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fat Burns
[stupid crap snipped]
They should take away your computer, you terrorist supporter!
Go fuck that toothless whore of a mother you have, Burns.
Lord Samuel
2004-04-29 04:54:12 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:49:29 GMT, Sock Puppet
Post by Sock Puppet
Post by Fat Burns
[stupid crap snipped]
They should take away your computer, you terrorist supporter!
Go fuck that toothless whore of a mother you have, Burns.
Such a lovely child you must have been, for a hyena!
RH
2004-04-30 20:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fat Burns
They should take away your computer, you terrorist supporter!
If someone is for the truth, is against illegal wars, hypocracy,
putting our own soldier boys in harms way for the benefit of a bunch
of greedy capitalists and the unprovoked murders of thousands of
innocent civilians and if he speaks out against it, that makes him a
'terrorist supporter'?

The truth is often stranger than fiction. By our own definition the
United states is the world's biggest terrorist organization. That's
too much for some people to grasp. The leaders of the world's biggest
terrorist organization work out of the White House and the Pentagon.
They should be thrown out of power.

"A U.S. Army manual gives this definition of terrorism: "the
calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that
are political, religious, or ideological in nature. This is done
through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear."
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
Unfortunately, Bush and his colleagues seem to find it impossible to
find any fault with themselves. Apparently they are so in love with
themselves that as far as their concerned, they can do no wrong.
Pure speculation on your part.
Fat Burns
Post by RH
Betcha can't find any stories with mention being made of
Bush/Cheney/or Rumsfeld admitting that they were wrong.
Hey Mr Barns - Well, can you find any such stories?

---------------------------------------------------------
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
As many present and former soldiers know, war crimes (or anything
else) that would cause the US gov't "extreme embarrasment"
if "known by people without an official need to know" are
classified "TOP
SECRET" and hidden from the people by our gov't employees.
To talk about a war crime becomes a felony. Talk to vietnam vets, many
of them still have nightmares from war crimes that they were ordered
to participate in during Vietnam. Many of our boys in Iraq already
have the same problem.
Sometimes a relatively minor atrocity will get some news coverage.
Here's one, but of course the US news corporations probably will not
put it on the front pages of their papers.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0430-01.htm
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
The American people would never be supportive of such appalling
atrocities as have been commited in our name, under our flag
with our tax dollars in the past couple of years.
It is time to pull out. We shouldn't make a bad situation worse.
Soldiers with guts and brains should go on strike and refuse to
terrorize the Iraqi people anymore. They should just say no to the
dogs in the white house, unless they want to come join the troops on
the front lines!
They should take away your computer, you terrorist supporter!
If someone is for the truth, is against illegal wars, hypocracy,
putting our own soldier boys in harms way for the benefit of a bunch
of greedy capitalists and the unprovoked murders of thousands of
innocent civilians and if he speaks out against it, that makes him a
'terrorist supporter'?

The truth is often stranger than fiction. By our own definition the
United states is the world's biggest terrorist organization. That's
too much for some people to grasp. The leaders of the world's biggest
terrorist organization work out of the White House and the Pentagon.
They should be thrown out of power.

"A U.S. Army manual gives this definition of terrorism: "the
calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that
are political, religious, or ideological in nature. This is done
through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear."
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
Unfortunately, Bush and his colleagues seem to find it impossible to
find any fault with themselves. Apparently they are so in love with
themselves that as far as their concerned, they can do no wrong.
Pure speculation on your part.
Fat Burns
Post by RH
Betcha can't find any stories with mention being made of
Bush/Cheney/or Rumsfeld admitting that they were wrong.
Hey Mr Barns - Well, can you find any such stories?

---------------------------------------------------------
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
As many present and former soldiers know, war crimes (or anything
else) that would cause the US gov't "extreme embarrasment"
if "known by people without an official need to know" are
classified "TOP
SECRET" and hidden from the people by our gov't employees.
To talk about a war crime becomes a felony. Talk to vietnam vets, many
of them still have nightmares from war crimes that they were ordered
to participate in during Vietnam. Many of our boys in Iraq already
have the same problem.
Sometimes a relatively minor atrocity will get some news coverage.
Here's one, but of course the US news corporations probably will not
put it on the front pages of their papers.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0430-01.htm
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
The American people would never be supportive of such appalling
atrocities as have been commited in our name, under our flag
with our tax dollars in the past couple of years.
It is time to pull out. We shouldn't make a bad situation worse.
YES!
Post by Fat Burns
Post by RH
Soldiers with guts and brains should go on strike and refuse to
terrorize the Iraqi people anymore. They should just say no to the
dogs in the white house, unless they want to come join the troops on
the front lines!
YES!

==============================================

http://veteransforcommonsense.org/

===============================================

"Man must change or die. There is no other course."
The World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org
Lord Samuel
2004-04-30 21:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
The leaders of the world's biggest
terrorist organization work out of the White House and the Pentagon.
Tell that to the rest of Europe that didn't want to speak German in
the 1940s.

Tell that to the UN who wanted us to clean up Kosovo.

Tell that to the South Koreans.

Tell that to the breakaway former Soviet republics.

Tell that to your egghead academic nitwits at UTA, but don't run that
anti-American smack 'round me.

Got it?

God!
LawsonE
2004-05-01 04:20:07 UTC
Permalink
So you're saying that this doesn't fit ANY activities carried out by the US?

"A U.S. Army manual gives this definition of terrorism: "the
calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that
are political, religious, or ideological in nature. This is done
through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear."

Perhaps these are the only methods that can work in certain situations, but
it seems rather blind to claim that the USA never uses them.
Post by Lord Samuel
Post by RH
The leaders of the world's biggest
terrorist organization work out of the White House and the Pentagon.
Tell that to the rest of Europe that didn't want to speak German in
the 1940s.
Tell that to the UN who wanted us to clean up Kosovo.
Tell that to the South Koreans.
Tell that to the breakaway former Soviet republics.
Tell that to your egghead academic nitwits at UTA, but don't run that
anti-American smack 'round me.
Got it?
God!
Lord Samuel
2004-05-01 04:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by LawsonE
So you're saying that this doesn't fit ANY activities carried out by the US?
Did you see the word "any" in my post?

Please, do so quote.

Or be seen as a partisan liar.
LawsonE
2004-05-01 05:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Samuel
Post by LawsonE
So you're saying that this doesn't fit ANY activities carried out by the US?
Did you see the word "any" in my post?
Please, do so quote.
Or be seen as a partisan liar.
I saw you ignoring the question.
King Samuel
2004-05-08 04:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by LawsonE
Post by Lord Samuel
Post by LawsonE
So you're saying that this doesn't fit ANY activities carried out by the
US?
Post by Lord Samuel
Did you see the word "any" in my post?
Please, do so quote.
Or be seen as a partisan liar.
I saw you ignoring the question.
Unreponsive.

Try again duck breath.
King Samuel
2004-05-09 04:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by LawsonE
So you're saying that this doesn't fit ANY activities carried out by the US?
So you're condemning us summarily for the few miscues we've made?

FUCK YOU TO HELL!
LawsonE
2004-05-09 04:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by King Samuel
Post by LawsonE
So you're saying that this doesn't fit ANY activities carried out by the US?
So you're condemning us summarily for the few miscues we've made?
How do you know it is a "few?" How did you count them?
Post by King Samuel
FUCK YOU TO HELL!
King Samuel
2004-05-09 19:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by LawsonE
Post by King Samuel
Post by LawsonE
So you're saying that this doesn't fit ANY activities carried out by the
US?
Post by King Samuel
So you're condemning us summarily for the few miscues we've made?
How do you know it is a "few?" How did you count them?
The media sure did.


You damned traitor.
RH
2004-05-05 23:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
WASHINGTON, May 4 — The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax
division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that
harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and
Miramax said Tuesday.

The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis —
including the family of Osama bin Laden — and criticizes Mr. Bush's
actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

--
Above is an excerpt- the whole article is
here:http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/national/05DISN.html?pagewanted=print&position=

It also says that disney feared that the Bush regime would find ways
to punish them economically - if they didnt' block it.

It won't be possible for us to have a democracy until the people know
what's going on!

==========================

As Americans, we get lies and deception from 'trusted sources' from
the cradle to the grave. Here are a couple of examples: "With liberty
and justice for all" & "The United States of America is the greatest
country in the world."

Our politicians are the world's greatest liars, and our capitalists
have the greatest most excessive piles of money. There's no justice in
the fact that rich white men get a radically different/better
"justice" than a poor black or hispanic man. Many European people who
aren't stuck with a puppet news media that is controlled by
billionaires know, the USA is the greatest obstacle to world peace and
the most powerful bully in the world. Does that really make us great?

The truth will set us free - from war - free from tyranny - free from
unchecked out of control greed/capitalizm.

Here are two good sources for daily news:

http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org


============

"Without sharing there can be no justice; without justice there can be
no peace; without peace there can be no future." The World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org

The above link is to the biggest story of all time. The story is
ignored by the corporate media owners, apparently because they're more
interested in making more and more millions than they are in helping
mankind to peace and justice.
Gun Woman
2004-05-07 23:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
--
Gun Woman
Armed and safer
Waiting for help from 911 could take the rest of your life.
King Samuel
2004-05-08 03:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gun Woman
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.

He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
la n.
2004-05-08 04:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by King Samuel
Post by Gun Woman
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
Let's see ... from which group is this expression of love and
tolerance coming from ... ? the bush group ? the republicans ?
the military ?

- nilita
+ BUSH 666 +
2004-05-08 04:52:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by la n.
Let's see ... from which group is this expression of love and
tolerance coming from ... ? the bush group ? the republicans ?
the military ?
Well when you murder someone they're effectively liberated.
Torture is a form of tough love.
And as for raping Iraqi boys; they *want* to be raped, ask NAMBLA.
la n.
2004-05-08 05:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by + BUSH 666 +
Post by la n.
Let's see ... from which group is this expression of love and
tolerance coming from ... ? the bush group ? the republicans ?
the military ?
Well when you murder someone they're effectively liberated.
Torture is a form of tough love.
And as for raping Iraqi boys; they *want* to be raped, ask NAMBLA.
Well, I repeat my question. From which group would such a
Post by + BUSH 666 +
Post by la n.
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
... the Bushites? The Republicans? One of the military groups?

Furthermore, what kind of message does that send to the world.
That you are no better than the people who committed the
atrocities in "that" Iraqi prison?

- nilita
King Samuel
2004-05-09 04:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by la n.
Post by + BUSH 666 +
Post by la n.
Let's see ... from which group is this expression of love and
tolerance coming from ... ? the bush group ? the republicans ?
the military ?
Well when you murder someone they're effectively liberated.
Torture is a form of tough love.
And as for raping Iraqi boys; they *want* to be raped, ask NAMBLA.
Well, I repeat my question. From which group would such a
Post by + BUSH 666 +
Post by la n.
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
... the Bushites? The Republicans? One of the military groups?
co.general you nitwit!
la n.
2004-05-09 05:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by King Samuel
Post by la n.
Post by + BUSH 666 +
Post by la n.
Let's see ... from which group is this expression of love and
tolerance coming from ... ? the bush group ? the republicans ?
the military ?
Well when you murder someone they're effectively liberated.
Torture is a form of tough love.
And as for raping Iraqi boys; they *want* to be raped, ask NAMBLA.
Well, I repeat my question. From which group would such a
Post by + BUSH 666 +
Post by la n.
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
... the Bushites? The Republicans? One of the military groups?
co.general you nitwit!
Oh okay. I take it you don't like Michael Moore and
Al Franken and that they should receive the same treatment
as was given by your colleagues in *that* prison in Iraq.

okey dokey

- nilita
g***@internet.charitydays.co.uk
2004-05-09 13:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Then why are you still living in the US? Go someplace that is
more to your liking. The US is not going to change. On the otherhand,
you will find that many countries that you like so much, will lock
you up, or kill you for making such a statement about thier country.
What a horrible idea. Uncle Sam has sent thousands of our boys
thousands of miles from home, where they've killed around 10,000
innocent women, children and old men (and crippled about the same
number for life). They had done nothing to us. All that for the sake
of greed (so that our billionaires who own bush can control their oil,
& maintain the military industrial pork barrel complex), with many of
our soldier boys also being killed or crippled for life, and you want
those who object to RUN AWAY? Heeellooooo?
Sadly, many Americans think that Iraq was involved in 9-11, or that
the Iraqi invasion and occupation is somehow a part a war on
terrorism. Truth of the matter is, the entire Iraqi nation (and much
of the moslem world) has been terrorised by our so called 'leaders',
thousands of soldier boys who are too young and ignorant to know
better and our tax dollars.
Hundreds of millions of people - (especially those who are not
subjects to the world's most spectacularly successful propaganda
system ever) can see that the invasion/occupation only puts Americans
citizens at GREATER risk of terrorism. Stupidest damn thing I've ever
seen- but the neurotic greedheads who manipulate the masses are
getting what they want. They have much in common with those sadly and
extreeeeemly obese people who have to be lifted out of their homes
with cranes - they have waaaay to much money - 30-40 (billion)
thousand million dollars is not enough for them. They just want more.
I'm with those who object to all that horror, and i'm not gonna run
away. Cowards do that. What kind of character would run away - when
our nation is causing so much misery - acting like a psychotic
monster, like an out of control steroid/viagra crazed bully?! What
kind of character would bury his/her head in the sand? Me and millions
of others refuse to look the other way and we pity those who do.
Those who still believe that the US is "one nation... with liberty and
justice for all" are grossly mistaken. It's time to wake the hell up.
If our nation doesn't change, if it continues to act like an idiotic
bully on the world stage, we could very well get nuked big time,
thanks to our billionaires and their puppets Bush/Cheney/Rumsfled, and
all the ignorant fools who support them.
People outside of the US propaganda umbrella - who know the truth have
many thousands of reasons to see that we (the USA) are the biggest
obstacle to world peace.
please: www.votetoimpeach.org
news: www.commondreams.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
".........USA - Love it or Leave It!!........."



Those who love the USA and hate Bush should stay.

The others should leave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
King Samuel
2004-05-09 16:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@internet.charitydays.co.uk
Those who love the USA and hate Bush should stay.
The others should leave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STFU you limey piece of shit!
King Samuel
2004-05-09 16:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by la n.
Post by King Samuel
Post by la n.
Post by + BUSH 666 +
Post by la n.
Let's see ... from which group is this expression of love and
tolerance coming from ... ? the bush group ? the republicans ?
the military ?
Well when you murder someone they're effectively liberated.
Torture is a form of tough love.
And as for raping Iraqi boys; they *want* to be raped, ask NAMBLA.
Well, I repeat my question. From which group would such a
Post by + BUSH 666 +
Post by la n.
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
... the Bushites? The Republicans? One of the military groups?
co.general you nitwit!
Oh okay. I take it you don't like Michael Moore and
Al Franken
Gee, yer a real brainiac!
Post by la n.
and that they should receive the same treatment
as was given by your colleagues in *that* prison in Iraq.
okey dokey
- nilita
No, I was pretty specific, they should be towed out to sea and used as
aids to navigation.
King Samuel
2004-05-09 04:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by la n.
Post by King Samuel
Post by Gun Woman
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
Let's see ... from which group is this expression of love and
tolerance coming from ... ? the bush group ? the republicans ?
the military ?
Which group?

colorado.general
Sock Puppet
2004-05-08 14:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by King Samuel
Post by Gun Woman
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
Just look at the violent latent homoeroticism in your post.

You need to get some healthy release. You're a festering pus-bag of
seething self-hatred, Spammy. Thus, you infest everyone who encounters
your diseased personality. Sad and sick.
King Samuel
2004-05-09 04:36:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sock Puppet
Post by King Samuel
Post by Gun Woman
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct
taped together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their
arses to serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
Just look at the violent latent homoeroticism in your post.
Just settle down and have a laugh smack-puppet, your turn is coming.
Gun Woman
2004-05-08 16:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by King Samuel
Post by Gun Woman
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
LOL!
--
Gun Woman
Armed and safer
Waiting for help from 911 could take the rest of your life.
Sock Puppet
2004-05-08 21:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by King Samuel
Post by Gun Woman
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct taped
together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their arses to
serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
LOL!
You're a sick twat, Gun Bitch.
King Samuel
2004-05-09 04:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sock Puppet
Post by King Samuel
Post by Gun Woman
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
Michael Moore is a communist lying sack of shit.
Amen.
He and Al Franken should be stripped nude, fully shaved, and duct
taped together then towed out to see and anchored with flags up their
arses to serve some useful purpose - as aids to navigation.
LOL!
You're a sick twat, Gun Bitch.
FOAD you shit-headed leftist.
Morf
2004-05-09 18:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
WASHINGTON, May 4 — The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax
division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that
harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and
Miramax said Tuesday.
The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis —
including the family of Osama bin Laden — and criticizes Mr. Bush's
actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
--
Above is an excerpt- the whole article is
here:http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/national/05DISN.html?pagewanted=print&position=
It also says that disney feared that the Bush regime would find ways
to punish them economically - if they didnt' block it.
It won't be possible for us to have a democracy until the people know
what's going on!
==========================
As Americans, we get lies and deception from 'trusted sources' from
the cradle to the grave. Here are a couple of examples: "With liberty
and justice for all" & "The United States of America is the greatest
country in the world."
Our politicians are the world's greatest liars, and our capitalists
have the greatest most excessive piles of money. There's no justice in
the fact that rich white men get a radically different/better
"justice" than a poor black or hispanic man. Many European people who
aren't stuck with a puppet news media that is controlled by
billionaires know, the USA is the greatest obstacle to world peace and
the most powerful bully in the world. Does that really make us great?
The truth will set us free - from war - free from tyranny - free from
unchecked out of control greed/capitalizm.
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org
============
"Without sharing there can be no justice; without justice there can be
no peace; without peace there can be no future." The World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org
The above link is to the biggest story of all time. The story is
ignored by the corporate media owners, apparently because they're more
interested in making more and more millions than they are in helping
mankind to peace and justice.
--
Post by RH
People would learn to defend themselves if there were no cops,just think
about it,cops aren't going to save you if someone has a gun and is
chasing you,you can call 911 on your cell phone and be dead when the
cops finally find the spot where your body is,the shooter can be out of
sight by then so what good are the cops,they don't stop crimes so why
would we beg them to come back if they went on strike,some cops have
actually said that we'd beg them to come back,only a fool that doesn't
know anything about the real world would beg the cops to come back.
You sure make long sentences, Vincella.

Very true that cops can't protect you at all times from everything, but
they do manage to catch criminals in between their own:
rape of small children,
rape of teenage girls,
rape of teenage boys,
rape of prisoners,
raping teens in the schools they are asked to protect,
extorting roadside rape at traffic stops,
extorting sex from prisoners for drugs,
killing those who flee,
killing those who resist,
killing those who commit no crime,
killing the mentally impaired,
killing bystanders during pursuits,
killing their spouses,
killing their own children,
killing the wrong person,
DUIs,
smuggling contraband,
possessing illegal weapons,
posessing illegal drugs,
tax evasion,
spying on peace groups,
voter fraud,
harassing judges,
stalking,
reporting fake crimes,
assisting suicides,
stealing, blackmailing,
exposing themselves,
drug distribution,
evidence planting,
evidence tampering,
crime lab coverups,
coercing false confessions,
homicidal beatings,
armed robberies,
accepting bribes,
shooting each other,
arresting each other,
smashing into the other cruisers,
burglaries,
finding prisoners dead in their cells,
misuse of criminal records,
misuse of police databases,
misuse of police computers,
misuse of police vehicles,
running brothels,
drunken brawls,
operating bootleg DVD rings,
stolen jewel rings,
gambling rings,
welfare fraud,
robbing the police station,
raiding the wrong apartment,
cyberstalking
etc.

The above random sampling was from the first quarted of 2004.
g***@internet.charitydays.co.uk
2004-05-09 18:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Fahrenheit 911 ~ Michael Moore
_____________________________________________________________________




http://movies.go.com/movies/F/fahrenheit911_2004/index.html

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

http://worldfilm.about.com/cs/upcomingreleases/p/Fahrenheit911.htm

http://movies.themovieinsider.com/?mid=622

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361596/

http://www.oilempire.us/michaelmoore.html

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=4972

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=21&ItemID=5479


_____________________________________________________________________
King Samuel
2004-05-09 19:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@internet.charitydays.co.uk
Fahrenheit 911 ~ Michael Moore
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8252
Michael Moore's Magic Kingdom

By Daniel G. Jennings
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 6, 2003

In the last two months patriotic Americans have become increasingly
disgusted with the behavior of one Michael Moore, a documentary
filmmaker considered a genius by the Hollywood establishment. Average
Americans were outraged with Moore's vicious attack on President Bush at
the Academy Awards, yet he received the best Oscar Award for his
documentary "Bowling for Columbine" (which blamed the Columbine High
School Massacre on the U.S. military).

Now if that wasn't bad enough the geniuses at the Walt Disney Company
have given Moore the green light (that is financed) his next masterpiece
"Fahrenheit 911." This abomination will try to show audiences that the
US government and President Bush were somehow to blame for Osama Bin
Laden and the Sept. 11 atrocity.

Why, we must ask ourselves does Hollywood love Michael Moore and keep
bankrolling his brand of lunacy? For several reasons, which reveal the
hypocrisy, lack of morality and sheer stupidity of the ignorant,
uneducated, bigoted, greedy and arrogant elite that runs our
entertainment industry.

The first reason Disney is bankrolling this nonsense is a simple one: it
amounts to pure profit. Moore's documentary will cost only a couple of
million bucks to produce. (A million for Moore, a few hundred thousand
more for actual production costs.) Yet it could bring tens of millions
of dollars of profit into the cash strapped Disney empire. "Fahrenheit
911" will surely attract large numbers of arrogant left wing
intellectuals to art house movie theaters around the US. These people
will pour in and pay $8 or $10 a pop to see Moore's nonsense. Even if it
earns only ten or twenty million bucks in domestic release, it'll
generate a nice chunk of change for Disney.

There's also the shock factor here, Disney executives seeing the big
money brought in by reality TV and the MTV Jackass movie may hope that
the shocking nature of Moore's film will attract viewers. They think
maybe they can create a profitable brand of reality movies by promoting
controversial propaganda that makes absurd and shocking conclusions.
These executives may hope that lots of people buy tickets simply to see
if the rumors about Moore and his movie are true.

Then there's the overseas market. This horrendous documentary will
undoubtedly attract huge audiences in Europe, the Middle East, Russia,
China and other places will large numbers of people hate us. It'll pack
them in, in Cairo and Paris and Beijing and make more money over there.
More importantly it'll establish Disney's reputation as a staunchly
anti-American company overseas. Deflecting the mouse factory from
terrorist violence and boycotts.

The second reason for Disney and Hollywood's embrace of Moore is one of
convenience rather than ideology. In recent years, Hollywood has taken a
lot of flack for promoting violence. The Columbine gunmen seem to have
inspired by violent films like the Matrix. al-Qaeda and other violent
Islamic fanatics have also been inspired to a high degree by violent
Hollywood movies. American action films make big money in the Arab
world. The same young men who blow themselves and Americans up love to
watch videos of really violent films like the Matrix and Rambo. The anti
Americanism of many of these movies, (such as the plot line of the X-Men
sequel X-2 in which U.S. military personnel are shown as Nazi type storm
troops who terrorize innocent children and plot genocide) are a blatant
attempt to market these movies to American hating young people overseas.

Sadly enough, only one person in Hollywood seemed to draw the obvious
connection between these violent fantasies and the Sept. 11 events. The
iconoclastic film maker Robert Altman (best known as the creator of the
movie version of "MASH") said Hollywood's big budget action movies
helped inspire the 9 11 terrorists. Altman is a cantankerous gadfly who
long ago cut his ties with the Hollywood establishment. Not
surprisingly, Altman wasn't invited to the podium to pick up the Oscar
for best director for his latest film, "Gosford Park," despite his long
and distinguished career.

If large segments of the public can be convinced that the evil military
industrial complex is responsible for the violence. Hollywood is off the
hook. It doesn't have to worry about censorship, boycotts and government
interference. Hollywood celebrities don't have to clean up their act and
start behaving responsibly. Executives don't have to change plot lines
or stop making profitable movies that might be too violent or offensive.

Since Hollywood's leaders can't come out and say these things publicly,
(this would attract too much attention to Tinseltown's promotion of
violence and anti-Americanism). The movie industry quietly finances
propagandists like Moore who spread its sick message in a quiet almost
underground campaign of lies.

Finally by bankrolling Moore, the Hollywood elitists can feel like
radicals and intellectuals rather than pampered and greedy entertainers.
When average Americans criticize them they can feel like activists
suffering for the cause rather than rich hypocrites. They can feel
morally superior to the rest of us when they are clearly morally
inferior to average people.


http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_3_michael_moore.html

Recently a wealthy Chicago couple named Drobney announced their plan to
bankroll a left-wing talk radio station. They needn’t bother: the Left
already has a multimedia star—and even without a radio station, he’s
bigger than Rush, has more fans than O’Reilly, and sells books faster
than Coulter. Followers plead with this “folk hero for the American
people” to run for president. Reviewers compare him to Twain, Voltaire,
and Swift. Unlike Rush and company, the appeal of this blue-collar
megastar extends far beyond the hoi polloi. Hollywood and Manhattan
agents wave gazillion-dollar contracts in front of his face. He wins
prestigious awards that will never grace the Limbaugh or O’Reilly
dens—Oscars, Emmys, Writer’s Guild Awards, and jury prizes at Cannes
(where his latest movie received a record 13-minute standing ovation).
People stop him on the streets of Berlin, Paris, and London—where,
according to Andrew Collins of the Guardian, they consider him “the
people’s filmmaker.”

He is, of course, Michael Moore, author of the best-selling Downsize
This! and Stupid White Men and the director of Roger and Me and Bowling
for Columbine. Those unfamiliar with Moore probably learned about him
during the Oscar ceremonies in March, when, several weeks into the war
in Iraq, he won the award for best documentary and came to the stage to
speak—or so he said—for his fellow documentary nominees. “We like
nonfiction and we live in fictitious times,” he intoned. “We live in a
time where we have fictitious election results that elect a fictitious
president. We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for
fictitious reasons. Whether it is the fictition [sic] of duct tape or
the fictition of orange alerts, we are against this war, Mr. Bush! Shame
on you, Mr. Bush! Shame on you!”

Well, the speaker ought to know. As critics have pointed out repeatedly,
Moore himself is a world-class expert on fictition; in fact, when it
comes to truth telling, not to mention logic, you might say: less is
Moore. But if the copious charges of lies and distortions don’t make a
dent, it’s because Moore’s fabrications are the very source of his
appeal. Not only has he created an enormously clever fictional character
whose name is Michael Moore—a contemporary Will Rogers, able to channel
Noam Chomsky via Chevy Chase; a working-class, truth-telling schlub in a
trucker’s hat who shuffles out of his La-Z-Boy recliner to seek answers
to folksy questions from the high and mighty—he has also conjured up a
fictional America that seductively taps into long familiar populist
resentments that have their most recent incarnation in the rage of the
anti-globalization Left.

In May, I went to see Moore give a talk to graduating seniors at a
liberal arts college outside New York City, and it was easy to see why
the kids went nuts. Moore recalled the Left as I remembered it in the
“you-can-change-the-world” sixties—funny, confident, passionate,
idealistic, full of possibility. As you might expect, he poked fun at
conservatives, but also at liberals, those long-suffering targets of
political satirists. “You must have a conservative in your family—an
uncle or someone,” he said confidingly. “That person never loses his car
keys. He has every key marked: this SUV, that SUV. Our [the liberal]
side goes [in a timid, whiny voice], ‘Do you know where my car keys are?
. . . Where do you want to go to dinner?’ ‘Gee, I don’t know. Where do
you want to go to dinner?’ Right-wingers go [slamming the podium] ‘GET
IN THE CAR! WE’RE GOING TO SIZZLER!’ ”

Moore was humble. He giggled disarmingly at his own jokes. He blushed
and looked at his feet during the standing ovation. He told how he was
so inexperienced when he made his first movie that, during an interview,
Jesse Jackson had to show him how to use his sound equipment. He was
also full of concern for the little guy. “Maybe I was raised the wrong
way, but my parents taught me we’ll be judged by how we treat the least
among us.” He promised truth in a world of corruption and lies. “When I
got out of my seat, and they all rose in standing ovation [at the
Oscars], I could just stand there and soak up all the love, blow them a
kiss, and get the hell out of here. But there’s a little voice, ‘You
have work to do.’ ” He was upbeat and inspirational. “Americans are far
more progressive than you think. . . . Change this world. Make the
playing fields level for everyone. One person can make a difference!”

It was a great act—the operative word here being “act.” It’s best to
think of Moore as always a performer, one who is not only the star of
his own show but also its subject matter. And therefore any attempt to
understand Moore or his intense appeal to an alienated Left has to begin
with the man himself.
Orwellian Prophecy
2004-05-09 21:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by King Samuel
Post by g***@internet.charitydays.co.uk
Fahrenheit 911 ~ Michael Moore
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8252
Michael Moore's Magic Kingdom
By Daniel G. Jennings
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 6, 2003
<SNIP>

More closed-minded neo-conservative spin for asshats who can't come to
their own conclusions. Dittohead loons, clustered together in the dark,
convincing themselves that they see the light.

Welcome to the Dark Ages of Bush.
King Samuel
2004-05-11 00:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orwellian Prophecy
Post by King Samuel
Post by g***@internet.charitydays.co.uk
Fahrenheit 911 ~ Michael Moore
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8252
Michael Moore's Magic Kingdom
By Daniel G. Jennings
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 6, 2003
<SNIP>
More closed-minded neo-conservative spin
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" won the Oscar for best
documentary. Unfortunately, it is not a documentary, by the Academy's
own definition.

The injustice here is not so much to the viewer, as to the independent
producers of real documentaries. These struggle in a field which
receives but a fraction of the recognition and financing of the
"entertainment industry." They are protected by Academy rules limiting
the documentary competition to nonfiction.

Bowling is fiction. It makes its points by deceiving and by misleading
the viewer. Statements are made which are false. Moore leads the reader
to draw inferences which he must have known were wrong. Indeed, even
speeches shown on screen are heavily edited, so that sentences are
assembled in the speaker's voice, but which were not sentences he
uttered. Bowling uses deception as its primary tool of persuasion and
effect.

A film which does this may be a commercial success. It may be
entertaining. But it is not a documentary. One need only consult Rule 12
of the rules for the Academy Award: a documentary is a non-fictional movie.

The point is not that Bowling is biased. No, the point is that Bowling
is deliberately, seriously, and consistently deceptive.

1. Willie Horton. The first edition of the webpage had a section on
falsification of the election ad regarding Willie Horton (the convict,
not the baseball star). This was one of the earliest criticisms of
Bowling--Ben Fritz caught it back in November, 2002.

To illustrate politicians' (and especially Republican politicians')
willingness to play the "race card," Bowling shows what purports to be a
television ad run by George Bush, Sr., in his race against Governor
Dukakis. For those who weren't around back then -- Massachusetts had a
"prison furlough" program where prisoners could be given short releases
from the clink. Unfortunately, some of them never came back. Dukakis
vetoed legislation which would have forbidden furlough to persons with
"life without parole" sentences for murder, and authorities thereafter
furloughed a number of murderers. Horton, in prison for a brutal
stabbing murder, got a furlough, never returned, and then attacked a
couple, assaulting both and raping the woman. His opponents in the
presidential race took advantage of the veto.

The ad as shown by Moore begins with a "revolving door" of justice,
progresses to a picture of Willie Horton (who is black), and ends with
dramatic subtitle: "Willie Horton released. Then kills again."

Fact: Bowling splices together two different election ads, one run by
the Bush campaign (featuring a revolving door, and not even mentioning
Horton) and another run by an independent expenditure campaign (naming
Horton, and showing footage from which it can be seen that he is black).
At the end, the ad ala' Moore has the customary note that it was paid
for by the Bush-Quayle campaign. Moore intones "whether you're a
psychotic killer or running for president of the United States, the one
thing you can always count on is white America's fear of the black man."
There is nothing to reveal that most of the ad just seen (and all of it
that was relevant to Moore's claim) was not the Bush-Quayle ad, which
didn't even name Horton.

Fact: Apparently unsatisfied with splicing the ads, Bowling's editors
added a subtitle "Willie Horton released. Then kills again."

Fact: Ben Fitz also noted that Bowling's editors didn't bother to
research the events before doctoring the ads. Horton's second arrest was
not for murder. (The second set of charges were aggravated assault and
rape).


I originally deleted this from the main webpage, because in the VHS
version of Bowling Moore had the decency to remove the misleading
footage. But as Brendan Nyhan recently wrote in Spinsanity, he put it
back in in the DVD version! He did make one minor change, switching his
edited-in caption to "Willie Horton released. Then rapes a woman."
Obviously Moore had been informed of the Spinsanity criticism. He
responded by correcting his own typo, not by removing the edited in
caption, nor by revealing that the ad being shown was not in fact a
Bush-Quayle ad.

2. NRA and the Reaction To Tragedy. A major theme in Bowling is that NRA
is callous toward slayings. In order to make this theme fit the facts,
however, Bowling repeatedly distorts the evidence.

A. Columbine Shooting/Denver NRA Meeting. Bowling portrays this with the
following sequence:

Weeping children outside Columbine;

Cut to Charlton Heston holding a musket and proclaiming "I have only
five words for you: 'from my cold, dead, hands'";

Cut to billboard advertising the meeting, while Moore intones "Just ten
days after the Columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in
mourning, Charlton Heston came to Denver and held a large pro-gun rally
for the National Rifle Association;"

Cut to Heston (supposedly) continuing speech... "I have a message from
the Mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the Mayor of Denver. He sent me this; it
says 'don't come here. We don't want you here.' I say to the Mayor this
is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in
our broad land. Don't come here? We're already here!"

The portrayal is one of an arrogant protest in response to the deaths --
or, as one reviewer put it, "it seemed that Charlton Heston and others
rushed to Littleton to hold rallies and demonstrations directly after
the tragedy." The portrayal is in fact false.


Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine,
but an annual meeting (see links below), whose place and date had been
fixed years in advance.


Fact: At Denver, the NRA cancelled all events (normally several days of
committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the
annual members' voting meeting -- that could not be cancelled because
the state law governing nonprofits required that it be held. [No way to
change location, since under NY law you have to give 10 days' advance
notice of that to the members, there were upwards of 4,000,000 members
-- and Columbine happened 11 days before the scheduled meeting.] As a
newspaper reported:

In a letter to NRA members Wednesday, President Charlton Heston and the
group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, said all seminars,
workshops, luncheons, exhibits by gun makers and other vendors, and
festivities are canceled.

All that's left is a members' reception with Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Okla.,
and the annual meeting, set for 10 a.m. May 1 in the Colorado Convention
Center.

Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual
meeting.

The NRA convention April 30-May 2 was expected to draw 22,000 members
and give the city a $17.9 million economic boost.

"But the tragedy in Littleton last Tuesday calls upon us to take steps,
along with dozens of other planned public events, to modify our schedule
to show our profound sympathy and respect for the families and
communities in the Denver area in their time of great loss," Heston and
LaPierre wrote.


Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's
depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after
Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and
was his gesture of gratitude upon his being given a handmade musket, at
that annual meeting.

Fact: When Bowling continues on to the speech which Heston did give in
Denver, it carefully edits it to change its theme.

Moore's fabrication here cannot be described by any polite term. It is a
lie, a fraud, and a few other things. Carrying it out required a LOT of
editing to mislead the viewer, as I will show below. I transcribed
Heston's speech as Moore has it, and compared it to a news agency's
transcript, color coding the passages. CLICK HERE for the comparison,
with links to the original transcript.

Moore has actually taken audio of seven sentences, from five different
parts of the speech, and a section given in a different speech entirely,
and spliced them together. Each edit is cleverly covered by inserting a
still or video footage for a few seconds.

First, right after the weeping victims, Moore puts on Heston's "I have
only five words for you . . . cold dead hands" statement, making it seem
directed at them. As noted above, it's actually a thank-you speech given
a year later in North Carolina.

Moore then has an interlude -- a visual of a billboard and his
narration. This is vital. He can't go directly to Heston's real Denver
speech. If he did that, you might ask why Heston in mid-speech changed
from a purple tie and lavender shirt to a white shirt and red tie, and
the background draperies went from maroon to blue. Moore has to separate
the two segments.
Morf
2004-05-11 02:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by King Samuel
Post by g***@internet.charitydays.co.uk
Fahrenheit 911 ~ Michael Moore
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8252
Michael Moore's Magic Kingdom
By Daniel G. Jennings
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 6, 2003
In the last two months patriotic Americans have become increasingly
disgusted with the behavior of one Michael Moore, ...
You spelled Bush wrong.

...................................................
The first trial is set to begin.

The guard faces a maximum 1 year sentence.

It is not a customary "Court Martial."

It is scheduled to be a "Special Court Martial," with a maximum sentence
of
one year in a US country club.

If Bush meant his words, he would turn them over to the
ICC,(International Criminal Court) which he refused to join
in 2003, because they refused to grant him immunity from war
crimes that may occur in his planned invasion of Iraq.

...................................................
Meanwhile, back in the USA:

Cops can't protect you at all times from everything, but
they do manage to catch criminals in between their own:
rape of small children,
rape of teenage girls,
rape of teenage boys,
rape of prisoners,
raping teens in the schools they are asked to protect,
extorting roadside rape at traffic stops,
extorting sex from prisoners for drugs,
killing those who flee,
killing those who resist,
killing those who commit no crime,
killing the mentally impaired,
killing bystanders during pursuits,
killing their spouses,
killing their own children,
killing the wrong person,
DUIs,
smuggling contraband,
possessing illegal weapons,
posessing illegal drugs,
tax evasion,
spying on peace groups,
voter fraud,
harassing judges,
stalking,
reporting fake crimes,
assisting suicides,
stealing, blackmailing,
exposing themselves,
drug distribution,
evidence planting,
evidence tampering,
crime lab coverups,
coercing false confessions,
homicidal beatings,
armed robberies,
accepting bribes,
shooting each other,
arresting each other,
smashing into the other cruisers,
burglaries,
finding prisoners dead in their cells,
misuse of criminal records,
misuse of police databases,
misuse of police computers,
misuse of police vehicles,
running brothels,
drunken brawls,
operating bootleg DVD rings,
stolen jewel rings,
gambling rings,
welfare fraud,
robbing the police station,
raiding the wrong apartment,
cyberstalking
etc.

The above random sampling was from the first quarted of 2004.
King Samuel
2004-05-11 04:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morf
Post by King Samuel
Post by g***@internet.charitydays.co.uk
Fahrenheit 911 ~ Michael Moore
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8252
Michael Moore's Magic Kingdom
By Daniel G. Jennings
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 6, 2003
In the last two months patriotic Americans have become increasingly
disgusted with the behavior of one Michael Moore, ...
You spelled Bush wrong.
You can KISS MY ASS you sack of crap!

CEO Council
2004-05-09 21:12:32 UTC
Permalink
We here in the CEO Council are very unhappy that Disney decided not to
release Farenheit 911 since the film would help promote the Democrats,
the Party for Choice and Society. Mr. Michael Moore is an honorary
member of the CEO Council.

The movie would have been released if the shareholders did not revolt
against the Disney Executives such as Michael Eisner. Disney
Executives know what is best for Society and how dare the shareholders
revolt against The Board. That is why the only people who should be
allowed to invest in stocks are Corporate Executives, Politicians and
other members of the Social Elite. The Stock Market is not meant for
ordinary people and that is why it was brought down for the past few
years to get them weeded out.

About the CEO Council. The CEO Council are a group of corporate
executives including honorary members ranging from the media to
Hollywood Stars with one purpose, the promotion and the return of the
Democrat Party to their rightful place of being the ruling Elite over
American Society.
Post by Morf
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
WASHINGTON, May 4 ? The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax
division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that
harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and
Miramax said Tuesday.
The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis ?
including the family of Osama bin Laden ? and criticizes Mr. Bush's
actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
--
Above is an excerpt- the whole article is
here:http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/national/05DISN.html?pagewanted=print&position=
It also says that disney feared that the Bush regime would find ways
to punish them economically - if they didnt' block it.
It won't be possible for us to have a democracy until the people know
what's going on!
==========================
As Americans, we get lies and deception from 'trusted sources' from
the cradle to the grave. Here are a couple of examples: "With liberty
and justice for all" & "The United States of America is the greatest
country in the world."
Our politicians are the world's greatest liars, and our capitalists
have the greatest most excessive piles of money. There's no justice in
the fact that rich white men get a radically different/better
"justice" than a poor black or hispanic man. Many European people who
aren't stuck with a puppet news media that is controlled by
billionaires know, the USA is the greatest obstacle to world peace and
the most powerful bully in the world. Does that really make us great?
The truth will set us free - from war - free from tyranny - free from
unchecked out of control greed/capitalizm.
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org
============
"Without sharing there can be no justice; without justice there can be
no peace; without peace there can be no future." The World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org
The above link is to the biggest story of all time. The story is
ignored by the corporate media owners, apparently because they're more
interested in making more and more millions than they are in helping
mankind to peace and justice.
--
Post by RH
People would learn to defend themselves if there were no cops,just think
about it,cops aren't going to save you if someone has a gun and is
chasing you,you can call 911 on your cell phone and be dead when the
cops finally find the spot where your body is,the shooter can be out of
sight by then so what good are the cops,they don't stop crimes so why
would we beg them to come back if they went on strike,some cops have
actually said that we'd beg them to come back,only a fool that doesn't
know anything about the real world would beg the cops to come back.
You sure make long sentences, Vincella.
Very true that cops can't protect you at all times from everything, but
rape of small children,
rape of teenage girls,
rape of teenage boys,
rape of prisoners,
raping teens in the schools they are asked to protect,
extorting roadside rape at traffic stops,
extorting sex from prisoners for drugs,
killing those who flee,
killing those who resist,
killing those who commit no crime,
killing the mentally impaired,
killing bystanders during pursuits,
killing their spouses,
killing their own children,
killing the wrong person,
DUIs,
smuggling contraband,
possessing illegal weapons,
posessing illegal drugs,
tax evasion,
spying on peace groups,
voter fraud,
harassing judges,
stalking,
reporting fake crimes,
assisting suicides,
stealing, blackmailing,
exposing themselves,
drug distribution,
evidence planting,
evidence tampering,
crime lab coverups,
coercing false confessions,
homicidal beatings,
armed robberies,
accepting bribes,
shooting each other,
arresting each other,
smashing into the other cruisers,
burglaries,
finding prisoners dead in their cells,
misuse of criminal records,
misuse of police databases,
misuse of police computers,
misuse of police vehicles,
running brothels,
drunken brawls,
operating bootleg DVD rings,
stolen jewel rings,
gambling rings,
welfare fraud,
robbing the police station,
raiding the wrong apartment,
cyberstalking
etc.
The above random sampling was from the first quarted of 2004.
sara
2004-05-11 00:50:55 UTC
Permalink
enclose a portion of an Iraqification Plan currently being circulated in
the House of Commons London:
~Iraqification of Military Situation in Iraq~

"On the 30th of June the Iraqi people will once more become a Sovereign
Nation. It will regain political power, it could gain most of its military
power as well and it is the challenge for its leaders to do so. In Falluja a
brave Iraqi General stood up and faced that challenge; now peace reigns on
the streets of that city.

We believe that the well-meaning street-patrol aspect of the military
occupation of Iraq is rapidly becoming UNTENABLE.

The problem with the Army being raised by the CPA is that it is top-down and
not coming from the people. Therefore it has no support even from within its
own ranks as has been recently demonstrated when they refused to fight.

We were pleased to see the pride and acceptance with which the Falluja
Protection Force was greeted by the Sunnis and we feel that this is the way
forward. That force should be expanded in Sunni Iraq.

The Kurds already have an established Security Force and should the Sh'ia
develop one then the problems such as those at Najaf could be avoided.

It is simply untenable that the Coalition Forces should continue to provide
the street patrol security that Iraqis could be providing for themselves.

Coalition Forces on the streets attract terrorism and insurgency and place
civilians in danger from IEDs and crossfire. Furthermore, US and British
soldiers should not be murdered by roadside bombs doing work that the Sh'ias
and Sunnis could do themselves.

With an Iraqi face on the streets the Coalition Forces should be reduced to
elite units offering specialised backup, Intelligence, heavy weaponry and
aerial support.

This could allow a significant pullback from unnecessary security patrol
provision by Coalition troops allowing large numbers of troops to return
home or to further guard Iraqs borders during this transitional phase.

We believe that should the Sh'ia raise their own force then that force will
have DIGNITY and with the aid of the UN and the Coalition it can ultimately
merge with Sunni and Kurdish forces to form a United Iraqi Army.

We do not believe that such a force initially needs to be trained. it would
exist to under the proven and respected moral authority of Grand Ayotollah
Ali Sistani in conjunction with the Iraqi Defence Ministry. But once peace
returns to the streets tranches of this force could be withdrawn for
training or somewhat stood down.

As time progresses and security is established Police can take over
neighbourhood security and excess members of the Security Forces can be
transferred to them.

Finally We believe that Mr. Laktar Brahimi of the UN should expand his
current portfolio of overseeing the political handover to examining and
assisting (in an advisory capacity) the Iraqification of the Military
Occupation.

We are supremely confident that Iraqis will proudly step forward in a sense
of patriotic duty to take over their own security on June 30th and will find
it easier to do so with the aid of Mr Brahimi.

The French would not have accepted an Army created by the Allies after World
War II.
It is time to let an Old and Intelligent Nation stand on its own feet."
Post by RH
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
WASHINGTON, May 4 - The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax
division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that
harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and
Miramax said Tuesday.
The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis -
including the family of Osama bin Laden - and criticizes Mr. Bush's
actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
--
Above is an excerpt- the whole article is
here:http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/national/05DISN.html?pagewanted=print
&position=
Post by RH
It also says that disney feared that the Bush regime would find ways
to punish them economically - if they didnt' block it.
It won't be possible for us to have a democracy until the people know
what's going on!
==========================
As Americans, we get lies and deception from 'trusted sources' from
the cradle to the grave. Here are a couple of examples: "With liberty
and justice for all" & "The United States of America is the greatest
country in the world."
Our politicians are the world's greatest liars, and our capitalists
have the greatest most excessive piles of money. There's no justice in
the fact that rich white men get a radically different/better
"justice" than a poor black or hispanic man. Many European people who
aren't stuck with a puppet news media that is controlled by
billionaires know, the USA is the greatest obstacle to world peace and
the most powerful bully in the world. Does that really make us great?
The truth will set us free - from war - free from tyranny - free from
unchecked out of control greed/capitalizm.
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.democracynow.org
============
"Without sharing there can be no justice; without justice there can be
no peace; without peace there can be no future." The World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org
The above link is to the biggest story of all time. The story is
ignored by the corporate media owners, apparently because they're more
interested in making more and more millions than they are in helping
mankind to peace and justice.
Lord Samuel
2004-04-29 04:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by know-buddy
Betcha can't find any stories with mention being made of
Bush/Cheney/or Rumsfeld admitting that they were wrong.
So?

Why don't we let history grade that - hint:

Takes a good 10-20 years...
Lord Samuel
2004-04-28 19:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
As everyone who's ever had a Top Secret (TS) security clearance knows,
any information that would cause the US gov't "extreme embarrassment"
if known by people without an "official need to know" - is classified
Duh!

So???

Sheesh, another starry eyed idealist slips from the womb of life into
reality.
c***@yahoo.com
2004-04-27 23:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
What Do We Do Now?
by Howard Zinn
It seems very hard for some people--especially those in high places,
but also those striving for high places--to grasp a simple truth: The
United States does not belong in Iraq. It is not our country. Our
presence is causing death, suffering, destruction, and so large
sections of the population are rising against us. Our military is then
reacting with indiscriminate force, bombing and shooting and rounding
up people simply on "suspicion."
[snip]
I agree with the general premise of the referenced article. The only
plausible solution for the US's Iraq problem is for the US to exit
Iraq and the sooner the better.

After more than a year since the start of the war in Iraq, all we
have to show for it is more than 700 dead American soldiers, more
than $200 billion thrown down a stinking shit hole, and no end in
sight to the fighting. Regardless of whether we stay another year
or 20 years, all we will have to show for it will be more dead
American soldiers, more money thrown down a stinking shit hole,
and no end in sight to the fighting.

We need to admit our mistake, swallow our pride, and cut our losses
by getting out now rather then 20 years from now.

I do take issue with several statements within the referenced article.
One glaring error in the article is "In Vietnam, supporters of
the war promised a bloodbath if U.S. troops withdrew. That did not
happen." It actually did happen! There was a bloodbath after the US
exited Vietnam, but it was not a legitimate justification for staying
in Vietnam.

One of the false claims that was made by Vietnam war supporters was
known as the Domino theory. The Domino theory held that if the Communists
took over South Vietnam, all the other Southeast Asia countries would soon
follow, followed inevitably by the rest of Asia, and then followed by
the remainder of the world in a domino like fashion. Last time I checked,
Thailand and most of the rest of the world is still not Communist.

Chuck Wright
http://www.lp.org/
Sock Puppet
2004-04-27 23:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
What Do We Do Now?
by Howard Zinn
It seems very hard for some people--especially those in high places,
but also those striving for high places--to grasp a simple truth: The
United States does not belong in Iraq. It is not our country. Our
presence is causing death, suffering, destruction, and so large
sections of the population are rising against us. Our military is then
reacting with indiscriminate force, bombing and shooting and rounding
up people simply on "suspicion."
[snip]
I agree with the general premise of the referenced article. The only
plausible solution for the US's Iraq problem is for the US to exit
Iraq and the sooner the better.
After more than a year since the start of the war in Iraq, all we
have to show for it is more than 700 dead American soldiers, more
than $200 billion thrown down a stinking shit hole, and no end in
sight to the fighting. Regardless of whether we stay another year
or 20 years, all we will have to show for it will be more dead
American soldiers, more money thrown down a stinking shit hole,
and no end in sight to the fighting.
We need to admit our mistake, swallow our pride, and cut our losses
by getting out now rather then 20 years from now.
I do take issue with several statements within the referenced article.
One glaring error in the article is "In Vietnam, supporters of
the war promised a bloodbath if U.S. troops withdrew. That did not
happen." It actually did happen! There was a bloodbath after the US
exited Vietnam, but it was not a legitimate justification for staying
in Vietnam.
One of the false claims that was made by Vietnam war supporters was
known as the Domino theory. The Domino theory held that if the Communists
took over South Vietnam, all the other Southeast Asia countries would soon
follow, followed inevitably by the rest of Asia, and then followed by
the remainder of the world in a domino like fashion. Last time I checked,
Thailand and most of the rest of the world is still not Communist.
Chuck Wright
http://www.lp.org/
You know, we can't save our nuclear stockpile, either. it is reaching
obsolescence. Might as well retire a few hundred strategic nukes and
make a big glass skateboard park over there. Fused silica is a great
way to cap those burning wells, too.
c***@yahoo.com
2004-04-28 12:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sock Puppet
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
What Do We Do Now?
by Howard Zinn
It seems very hard for some people--especially those in high places,
but also those striving for high places--to grasp a simple truth: The
United States does not belong in Iraq. It is not our country. Our
presence is causing death, suffering, destruction, and so large
sections of the population are rising against us. Our military is then
reacting with indiscriminate force, bombing and shooting and rounding
up people simply on "suspicion."
[snip]
I agree with the general premise of the referenced article. The only
plausible solution for the US's Iraq problem is for the US to exit
Iraq and the sooner the better.
After more than a year since the start of the war in Iraq, all we
have to show for it is more than 700 dead American soldiers, more
than $200 billion thrown down a stinking shit hole, and no end in
sight to the fighting. Regardless of whether we stay another year
or 20 years, all we will have to show for it will be more dead
American soldiers, more money thrown down a stinking shit hole,
and no end in sight to the fighting.
We need to admit our mistake, swallow our pride, and cut our losses
by getting out now rather then 20 years from now.
I do take issue with several statements within the referenced article.
One glaring error in the article is "In Vietnam, supporters of
the war promised a bloodbath if U.S. troops withdrew. That did not
happen." It actually did happen! There was a bloodbath after the US
exited Vietnam, but it was not a legitimate justification for staying
in Vietnam.
One of the false claims that was made by Vietnam war supporters was
known as the Domino theory. The Domino theory held that if the Communists
took over South Vietnam, all the other Southeast Asia countries would soon
follow, followed inevitably by the rest of Asia, and then followed by
the remainder of the world in a domino like fashion. Last time I checked,
Thailand and most of the rest of the world is still not Communist.
You know, we can't save our nuclear stockpile, either. it is reaching
obsolescence. Might as well retire a few hundred strategic nukes and
make a big glass skateboard park over there. Fused silica is a great
way to cap those burning wells, too.
Genocide would be a nice capstone for the US's quest to "liberate"
the Iraqis?

Chuck Wright
http://www.lp.org/
RH
2004-05-09 13:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Then way are you still living in the US? Go someplace that is
more to your liking. The US is not going to change. On the otherhand,
you will find that many countries that you like so much, will lock
you
up, or kill you for making such a statement about thier country.
What a horrible idea. Uncle Sam has sent thousands of our boys
thousands of miles from home, where they've killed around 10,000
innocent women, children and old men (and crippled about the same
number for life). They had done nothing to us. All that for the sake
of greed (so that our billionaires who own bush can control their oil,
& maintain the military industrial pork barrel complex), with many of
our soldier boys also being killed or crippled for life, and you want
those who object to RUN AWAY? Heeellooooo?

Sadly, many Americans think that Iraq was involved in 9-11, or that
the Iraqi invasion and occupation is somehow a part a war on
terrorism. Truth of the matter is, the entire Iraqi nation (and much
of the moslem world) has been terrorised by our so called 'leaders',
thousands of soldier boys who are too young and ignorant to know
better and our tax dollars.

Hundreds of millions of people - (especially those who are not
subjects to the world's most spectacularly successful propaganda
system ever) can see that the invasion/occupation only puts Americans
citizens at GREATER risk of terrorism. Stupidest damn thing I've ever
seen- but the neurotic greedheads who manipulate the masses are
getting what they want. They have much in common with those sadly and
extreeeeemly obese people who have to be lifted out of their homes
with cranes - they have waaaay to much money - 30-40 (billion)
thousand million dollars is not enough for them. They just want more.

I'm with those who object to all that horror, and i'm not gonna run
away. Cowards do that. What kind of character would run away - when
our nation is causing so much misery - acting like a psychotic
monster, like an out of control steroid/viagra crazed bully?! What
kind of character would bury his/her head in the sand? Me and millions
of others refuse to look the other way and we pity those who do.

Those who still believe that the US is "one nation... with liberty and
justice for all" are grossly mistaken. It's time to wake the hell up.
If our nation doesn't change, if it continues to act like an idiotic
bully on the world stage, we could very well get nuked big time,
thanks to our billionaires and their puppets Bush/Cheney/Rumsfled, and
all the ignorant fools who support them.

People outside of the US propaganda umbrella - who know the truth have
many thousands of reasons to see that we (the USA) are the biggest
obstacle to world peace.

please: www.votetoimpeach.org

news: www.commondreams.org
King Samuel
2004-05-09 16:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Sadly, many Americans think that Iraq was involved in 9-11
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp?pg=2

* Iraqi defectors had been saying for years that Saddam's regime trained
"non-Iraqi Arab terrorists" at a camp in Salman Pak, south of Baghdad.
U.N. inspectors had confirmed the camp's existence, including the
presence of a Boeing 707. Defectors say the plane was used to train
hijackers; the Iraqi regime said it was used in counterterrorism
training. Sabah Khodada, a captain in the Iraqi Army, worked at Salman
Pak. In October 2001, he told PBS's "Frontline" about what went on
there. "Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on
assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of buses,
public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of operations
related to terrorism. . . . All this training is directly toward
attacking American targets, and American interests."

* On February 13, 2003, the government of the Philippines asked Hisham
al Hussein, the second secretary of the Iraqi embassy in Manila, to
leave the country. According to telephone records obtained by Philippine
intelligence, Hussein had been in frequent contact with two leaders of
Abu Sayyaf, an al Qaeda affiliate in South Asia, immediately before and
immediately after they detonated a bomb in Zamboanga City. That attack
killed two Filipinos and an American Special Forces soldier and injured
several others. Hussein left the Philippines for Iraq after he was
"PNG'd"--declared persona non grata--by the Philippine government and
has not been heard from since.

According to a report in the Christian Science Monitor, an Abu Sayyaf
leader who planned the attack bragged on television a month after the
bombing that Iraq had contacted him about conducting joint operations.
Philippine intelligence officials were initially skeptical of his
boasting, but after finding the telephone records they believed him.

* No fewer than five high-ranking Czech officials have publicly
confirmed that Mohammed Atta, the lead September 11 hijacker, met with
Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence officer working at
the Iraqi embassy, in Prague five months before the hijacking. Media
leaks here and in the Czech Republic have called into question whether
Atta was in Prague on the key dates--between April 4 and April 11, 2001.
And several high-ranking administration officials are "agnostic" as to
whether the meeting took place. Still, the public position of the Czech
government to this day is that it did.

That assertion should be seen in the context of Atta's curious stop-off
in Prague the previous spring, as he traveled to the United States. Atta
flew to Prague from Germany on May 30, 2000, but did not have a valid
visa and was denied entry. He returned to Germany, obtained the proper
paperwork, and took a bus back to Prague. One day later, he left for the
United States.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html
After your service in the army, you worked for a secret part of the
Iraqi government?

Some of it is not very secretive. But there's another part, which has a
lot to do with international terrorism and this kind of operation --
this is very secretive.


Maybe you could tell me what this section is called, and who runs it.
And what did it do?

It's called the Division of Special Operations. ... This whole camp
where their training is run by the Iraqi [security service]... The
government organization [that] basically possesses or have control of
the camp is the Iraqi intelligence. But different training people who
come, they are headed or sent by different people in the Iraqi government.


You say that this is a secret camp. But what was it like? Was it
something you drove by and could see on the highway? Did you need
special clearance to go there? How would you describe this place, this
location?

If you're driving on those farm roads, you could probably see the edges
of the camp, but you wouldn't realize this is a special camp. The camp
is huge. And the locations for the training are far from anybody can see
them from the outside. But even when we have visitors, even at the level
of a minister, or even higher than a minister in the Iraqi government,
they will have to drive around the camp or be driven in the camp inside
very specific type of a vehicle. They will sit on the back seat, for
example, of this vehicle and they would have ... in addition to the
shaded windows, they will have to pull down curtains and they snap those
curtains on the bottom, to make sure nobody can see anything outside
this vehicle while they're driven around.


This is even government officials [who] are not allowed to see this kind
of training?

Yes. At the very highest level, they cannot see this training.


What kind of training went on, and who was being trained?

Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on
assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of buses,
public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of operations
related to terrorism.


The people being trained were Iraqis in one group, and non-Iraqis, or
foreign nationals, in another?

Non-Iraqis were trained separately from us. There were strict orders not
to meet with them and not to talk to them. And even when they conduct
their training, their training has to occur at times different from the
times when we conduct the Iraqis our own training.

Sabah Khodada was a captain in the Iraqi army from 1982 to 1992. He
worked at what he describes as a highly secret terrorist training camp
at Salman Pak (see Khodada's hand-drawn map of the camp), an area south
of Baghdad. In this translated interview, conducted in association with
The New York Times on Oct. 14, 2001, Khodada describes what went on at
Salman Pak, including details on training hijackers. He emigrated to the
U.S. in May 2001. (Editor's Note: Although U.S. officials acknowledge
terrorists were trained at Salman Pak, they say it is unlikely that
these activities were related to the Sept. 11 attacks. It should also be
noted that the two defectors interviewed for this report have been
brought to FRONTLINE's attention by members of the Iraqi National
Congress (INC), a dissident organization seeking to overthrow Saddam
Hussein.)




So you were training Iraqis, Saddam's fedayeen, members of the militia
in Iraq. And someone else, other groups, were training the non-Iraqis?

They were special trainers or teachers from the Iraqi intelligence and
al-Mukhabarat. And those same trainers or teachers will train the
fedayeen, the Iraqi fedayeen, and also the same group of those teachers
will train the non-Iraqis, foreigners who are in the camp. Personally,
my profession is not this kind of training. My profession is to train
people on infantry, typical infantry training, such as training on
machine guns, pistols, hand grenades, rocket launchers on the shoulder
and this kind of training. The special training that I'm talking about,
such as the kidnapping and so, is conducted by those trainers who are
not from the army; they are from ... al-Mukhabarat.And there was a
person who is very famous. They call him Al-Shaba. [ph]. This is Arabic
word means "The Ghost," who was responsible for all the training, and
those trainers or the teachers.


Why was he called the Ghost?

I don't know exactly why he's being called the Ghost. I came there and
his name was the Ghost. But I know that he has conducted several
terrorist operations in Lebanon and in other countries all over the
world. And I know that he told us that he's been requested to be
arrested by the Interpol. This is probably why he called himself the Ghost.


And the foreign nationals, the Arabs who are there, but who are not
Iraqis -- what were they like? Were they Egyptians, Saudis? Do you know
where they came from?

They look like they're mostly from the Gulf, sometimes from areas close
to Yemen, from their dark skin and short bodies. And they also are
Muslims. ...


Were they religious?

I don't know exactly because I saw them seldom very [briefly]. But some
of them has beards, long beards, which is an indication of being a
religious Muslim. ...


How long were you at this base, at this secret location?

Approximately six months.


What was your job?

Administrational things, such as providing food, leave of absence
permissions, general training. Ammunition ... providing them with
ammunition when needed.


How did you meet the Ghost? And what did he say?

I meet him several times a day. We usually meet in the morning when they
go to training. We meet in the afternoon or the noontime when they come
back from training. And several times, we'll meet at the evening to
drink tea. And he will come, him and other teachers who always with him.
They always talk about their operations proudly. For example, they were
telling us about how they were able to penetrate the American forces
during the 1990 Gulf War, where they went inside the Saudi Arabia
territory, and they were able to bring exact coordinates of the Dharan
airbase where it was hit by the Scud missiles and many Americans were
killed.



He is an Iraqi, the Ghost?

Yes.


Did he explain what kind of training they were giving to the people who
were there, especially to the non-Iraqis?

He tried not to talk about training as much as possible. I even, out of
curiosity, asked him about those Arabs. Sometime he told me, "Don't ask
about them. This is something we're not supposed to talk about."


So the Ghost said, "I can't talk to you about these Arabs who are
training, or what we're training them in."

Yes.



So did you find out what kind of training was going on?

I don't necessarily know what kind of training they do, but they were
trained exactly at the same locations, and they were trained by the same
teachers who were training ... [the fighters for] Saddam. Training
includes hijacking and kidnapping of airplanes, trains, public buses,
and planting explosives in cities, sabotaging villages, sabotaging
houses, assassinations.

And the training also included how to prepare for suicidal operations.
For example, they will train them how to belt themselves around with
explosives, and jump in a place and explode themselves out as part of
the suicidal training. I think the trainings of the Arabs was much
harsher, and much stricter, than the training of the Iraqis.

Why?

Because we know that Arabs, non-Iraqis who come to train in these kind
of camps, are going to be sent to very dangerous and important
operations outside Iraq; not inside Iraq. And they will be conducting
very specific operations and dangerous operations in their own cities,
or in their own countries, or other countries all over the world. Those
Arabs are real volunteers. They come in small numbers, and they come
with the intention to do some real suicidal operations. ...

There are other types of training, such as physical training, which we
are all familiar with. But there's another kind of special training,
which is called "self-confidence training." ... For example, a bunch of
the fedayeen will be taken in a helicopter. They will fly them away to
an unknown area, and they will be asked to jump out of the plane without
knowing if there is underneath them a desert or a house or there's
water. But they're supposed to jump. So, they will jump.

Another type of self-confidence training would be, for example, they
will pull the pin of a hand grenade, and they will throw the hand
grenade from one to another until the last one will throw it in the air
and it will explode in the air. Another type of self-confidence training
would be, they will put a hand grenade in a pipe, and they will pull the
pin and throw it in the pipe, and stand near the pipe saluting the hand
grenade until it explodes.

Other type of self-confidence training would be holding a rocket
launcher, which is an Army GB-7, and holding it vertically, then
shooting the rocket vertically, which is very unusual, but the backfire
of this hand grenade will hit the ground next to you. And if you don't
have self-confidence, you cannot do it. This is another kind of
self-confidence training.


And they trained people to hijack airplanes?

Yes.


For what purpose?

... It has been said openly in the media and even to us, from the
highest command, that the purpose of establishing Saddam's fighters is
to attack American targets and American interests. This is known.
There's no doubt about it.

All this training is directed towards attacking American targets, and
American interests. The training does not only include hijacking of
planes and sabotage. ... Some other people were trained to do
parachuting. Some other areas were training on how to penetrate enemy
lines and get information from behind enemy lines. But it's all for the
general concept of hitting and attacking American targets and American
interests.



Who controlled this operation?

In terms of training, they will train in this special camp. But after
this training, they will go in small groups. These small groups are
directly connected with Saddam, or to Saddam's son. For example, the
Iraqi fighters, they will be spread all over the country. Occasionally
those individual groups, very small groups, will be called for. They
might encounter different kind of special training beyond this training
on specific things. I'll give you an example. They were calling for some
of these groups to train intensively to learn English language, Persian
language, Hebrew language, to be sent out to different places of the
world to conduct such kind of ... different kind of operations. I
suspect that the higher level of training, or the additional training
they encounter, has a lot to do with what happened. And there's a lot of
similarity with what happened with New York and Washington on September 11.
Fat Burns
2004-04-28 00:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Post by RH
Published in the June, 2004 issue of The Progressive
What Do We Do Now?
by Howard Zinn
It seems very hard for some people--especially those in high places,
but also those striving for high places--to grasp a simple truth: The
United States does not belong in Iraq. It is not our country. Our
presence is causing death, suffering, destruction, and so large
sections of the population are rising against us. Our military is then
reacting with indiscriminate force, bombing and shooting and rounding
up people simply on "suspicion."
[snip]
I agree with the general premise of the referenced article. The only
plausible solution for the US's Iraq problem is for the US to exit
Iraq and the sooner the better.
After more than a year since the start of the war in Iraq, all we
have to show for it is more than 700 dead American soldiers, more
than $200 billion thrown down a stinking shit hole, and no end in
sight to the fighting. Regardless of whether we stay another year
or 20 years, all we will have to show for it will be more dead
American soldiers, more money thrown down a stinking shit hole,
and no end in sight to the fighting.
We need to admit our mistake, swallow our pride, and cut our losses
by getting out now rather then 20 years from now.
I do take issue with several statements within the referenced article.
One glaring error in the article is "In Vietnam, supporters of
the war promised a bloodbath if U.S. troops withdrew. That did not
happen." It actually did happen! There was a bloodbath after the US
exited Vietnam, but it was not a legitimate justification for staying
in Vietnam.
One of the false claims that was made by Vietnam war supporters was
known as the Domino theory. The Domino theory held that if the
Communists took over South Vietnam, all the other Southeast Asia
countries would soon follow, followed inevitably by the rest of Asia,
and then followed by the remainder of the world in a domino like
fashion. Last time I checked, Thailand and most of the rest of the world
is still not Communist.
Chuck Wright
http://www.lp.org/
--
Fat Burns
Lord Samuel
2004-04-25 04:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism.
Um nope.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp?pg=2
* Iraqi defectors had been saying for years that Saddam's regime
trained "non-Iraqi Arab terrorists" at a camp in Salman Pak, south of
Baghdad. U.N. inspectors had confirmed the camp's existence, including
the presence of a Boeing 707. Defectors say the plane was used to
train hijackers; the Iraqi regime said it was used in counterterrorism
training. Sabah Khodada, a captain in the Iraqi Army, worked at Salman
Pak. In October 2001, he told PBS's "Frontline" about what went on
there. "Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on
assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of
buses, public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of
operations related to terrorism. . . . All this training is directly
toward attacking American targets, and American interests."

* On February 13, 2003, the government of the Philippines asked Hisham
al Hussein, the second secretary of the Iraqi embassy in Manila, to
leave the country. According to telephone records obtained by
Philippine intelligence, Hussein had been in frequent contact with two
leaders of Abu Sayyaf, an al Qaeda affiliate in South Asia,
immediately before and immediately after they detonated a bomb in
Zamboanga City. That attack killed two Filipinos and an American
Special Forces soldier and injured several others. Hussein left the
Philippines for Iraq after he was "PNG'd"--declared persona non
grata--by the Philippine government and has not been heard from since.

According to a report in the Christian Science Monitor, an Abu Sayyaf
leader who planned the attack bragged on television a month after the
bombing that Iraq had contacted him about conducting joint operations.
Philippine intelligence officials were initially skeptical of his
boasting, but after finding the telephone records they believed him.

* No fewer than five high-ranking Czech officials have publicly
confirmed that Mohammed Atta, the lead September 11 hijacker, met with
Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence officer working at
the Iraqi embassy, in Prague five months before the hijacking. Media
leaks here and in the Czech Republic have called into question whether
Atta was in Prague on the key dates--between April 4 and April 11,
2001. And several high-ranking administration officials are "agnostic"
as to whether the meeting took place. Still, the public position of
the Czech government to this day is that it did.

That assertion should be seen in the context of Atta's curious
stop-off in Prague the previous spring, as he traveled to the United
States. Atta flew to Prague from Germany on May 30, 2000, but did not
have a valid visa and was denied entry. He returned to Germany,
obtained the proper paperwork, and took a bus back to Prague. One day
later, he left for the United States.

http://www.mail-archive.com/***@erols.com/msg00077.html
An alleged terrorist accused of helping the 11 September conspirators
was
invited to a party by the Iraqi ambassador to Spain under his al-Qaeda
nom
de guerre, according to documents seized by Spanish investigators.

Yusuf Galan, who was photographed being trained at a camp run by Osama
bin
Laden, is now in jail, awaiting trial in Madrid. The indictment
against him,
drawn up by investigating judge Baltasar Garzon, claims he was
'directly
involved with the preparation and carrying out of the attacks ... by
the
suicide pilots on 11 September'.

Evidence of Galan's links with Iraqi government officials came to
light only
recently, as investigators pored through more than 40,000 pages of
documents
seized in raids at the homes of Galan and seven alleged
co-conspirators. The
Spanish authorities have supplied copies to lawyers in America, and
this
week the documents will form part of a dossier to be filed in a
federal
court in Washington, claiming damages of approximately $100 billion on
behalf of more than 2,500 11 September victims.

The lawsuit lists Saddam's government in Iraq as one of its principal
defendants, claiming it provided 'material support' to the al-Qaeda
terrorists. Under US law, the victims' families do not have to prove
active
direction or involvement in the details of the 9/11 conspiracy by
Iraq, only
that Saddam's regime gave al-Qaeda more general assistance in the
knowledge
that it was planning to attack American targets.

Although some Western intelligence officials have expressed scepticism
about
an al-Qaeda-Iraq link, in recent months George Tenet, the Director of
the
CIA, has made increasingly strong statements alleging such a
connection. In
Congressional testimony last month, he said that Iraq had co-operated
with
al-Qaeda for 10 years, and that it had trained al-Qaeda members in
bombmaking and the use of chemical and biological weapons. In an
apparent
attempt to refute the sceptics, he said this information 'comes from
reliable sources'.

The evidence in support of the 9/11 damages claim cites several
examples of
this alleged co-operation. They include the terrorist training camp at
Salman Pak near Baghdad, where former Iraqi intelligence brigadier
Jamal
al-Qurairy has said that non-Iraqi Islamic radicals were trained to
hijack
aircraft using knives.

It also includes a new affirmation by the Czech government that
Mohamed
Atta, the leader of the 9/11 plotters, met an Iraqi intelligence
officer,
Ibrahim al-Ani, in Prague in April 2001. Some US officials have
suggested
this meeting did not happen.

But in a signed statement dated 24 February, 2003, Hynek Kmonicek, the
Czech
ambassador to the UN, says his government 'can confirm that during the
stay
of Mohamed Atta ... there was contact with Mr al-Ani, who was on 22
April,
2001 expelled from the Czech Republic on the basis of activities not
compatible with his diplomatic status [the usual euphemism for
spying]'.
Garzon's indictment says Galan was part of a cell which organized bank
robberies on behalf of al-Qaeda, and which had supported the group
around
Atta financially and logistically
styron
2004-04-25 05:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Samuel
Post by RH
Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism.
Um nope.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp?pg=2
* Iraqi defectors had been saying for years that Saddam's regime
trained "non-Iraqi Arab terrorists" at a camp in Salman Pak, south of
Baghdad. U.N. inspectors had confirmed the camp's existence, including
etc...
Salman Pak has been discredited, like most of the sensational
information given by the defectors:

-----------
"In separate interviews with me, however, a former C.I.A. station chief
and a former military intelligence analyst said that the camp near
Salman Pak had been built not for terrorism training but for
counter-terrorism training. In the mid-eighties, Islamic terrorists were
routinely hijacking aircraft. In 1986, an Iraqi airliner was seized by
pro-Iranian extremists and crashed, after a hand grenade was triggered,
killing at least sixty-five people. (At the time, Iran and Iraq were at
war, and America favored Iraq.) Iraq then sought assistance from the
West, and got what it wanted from Britain’s MI6. The C.I.A. offered
similar training in counter-terrorism throughout the Middle East. “We
were helping our allies everywhere we had a liaison,” the former station
chief told me. Inspectors recalled seeing the body of an airplane—which
appeared to be used for counter-terrorism training—when they visited a
biological-weapons facility near Salman Pak in 1991, ten years before
September 11th. It is, of course, possible for such a camp to be
converted from one purpose to another. The former C.I.A. official noted,
however, that terrorists would not practice on airplanes in the open.
“That’s Hollywood rinky-dink stuff,” the former agent said. “They train
in basements. You don’t need a real airplane to practice hijacking. The
9/11 terrorists went to gyms. But to take one back you have to practice
on the real thing.” Salman Pak was overrun by American troops on April
6th. Apparently, neither the camp nor the former biological facility has
yielded evidence to substantiate the claims made before the war."

S. Hersh - May 12, 2003
-------------

Saddam was a mortal enemy of Radical Islam - taking him out was an
enormous tactical blunder in the War on Terror.
Lord Samuel
2004-04-25 06:09:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:27:26 -0400, styron
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Newsgroups: alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.republicans,co.general,sci.military.naval,us.military.army,us.military.national-guard,alt.military.police
Subject: Re: War photos and facts
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Organization: Bell Sympatico
Canuck traitor's addy:

hse-montreal-ppp-102586.qc.sympatico.ca

Keep changing handles you bastard, your game is UP!

FWD: RCMP
Lord Samuel
2004-04-25 06:16:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:27:26 -0400, styron
Post by styron
Salman Pak has been discredited,
No it has not, you lying shithead.

Here, grok this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/866766/posts
Jet fuselage at Iraq's Salman Park facility is used to hijackers
(Space Imaging)
Abhijit Bhattacharya
2004-04-25 16:59:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Samuel
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:27:26 -0400, styron
Post by styron
Salman Pak has been discredited,
No it has not, you lying shithead.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/866766/posts
Jet fuselage at Iraq's Salman Park facility is used to hijackers
(Space Imaging)
The mere presence of an airliner fuselage cannot be used as a link
between Saddam Hussein and terrorism. Lots of countries use airliner
fuselages for many reasons, from fire safety tests to law enforcement
training.

Regards,

Abhijit
Lord Samuel
2004-04-25 17:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abhijit Bhattacharya
Post by Lord Samuel
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:27:26 -0400, styron
Post by styron
Salman Pak has been discredited,
No it has not, you lying shithead.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/866766/posts
Jet fuselage at Iraq's Salman Park facility is used to hijackers
(Space Imaging)
The mere presence of an airliner fuselage cannot be used as a link
between Saddam Hussein and terrorism.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp?pg=2
* Iraqi defectors had been saying for years that Saddam's regime
trained "non-Iraqi Arab terrorists" at a camp in Salman Pak, south of
Baghdad. U.N. inspectors had confirmed the camp's existence, including
the presence of a Boeing 707. Defectors say the plane was used to
train hijackers; the Iraqi regime said it was used in counterterrorism
training. Sabah Khodada, a captain in the Iraqi Army, worked at Salman
Pak. In October 2001, he told PBS's "Frontline" about what went on
there. "Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on
assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of
buses, public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of
operations related to terrorism. . . . All this training is directly
toward attacking American targets, and American interests."
Post by Abhijit Bhattacharya
Lots of countries use airliner
fuselages for many reasons, from fire safety tests to law enforcement
training.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm
Iraq told UN inspectors that Salman Pak was an anti-terror training
camp for Iraqi special forces. However, two defectors from Iraqi
intelligence stated that they had worked for several years at the
secret Iraqi government camp, which had trained Islamic terrorists in
rotations of five or six months since 1995. Training activities
including simulated hijackings carried out in an airplane fuselage
[said to be a Boeing 707] at the camp. The camp is divided into
distinct sections. On one side of the camp young, Iraqis who were
members of Fedayeen Saddam are trained in espionage, assassination
techniques and sabotage. The Islamic militants trained on the other
side of the camp, in an area separated by a small lake, trees and
barbed wire. The militants reportedly spent time training, usually in
groups of five or six, around the fuselage of the airplane.
Post by Abhijit Bhattacharya
Regards,
Abhijit
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html
You say that this is a secret camp. But what was it like? Was it
something you drove by and could see on the highway? Did you need
special clearance to go there? How would you describe this place, this
location?

If you're driving on those farm roads, you could probably see the
edges of the camp, but you wouldn't realize this is a special camp.
The camp is huge. And the locations for the training are far from
anybody can see them from the outside. But even when we have visitors,
even at the level of a minister, or even higher than a minister in the
Iraqi government, they will have to drive around the camp or be driven
in the camp inside very specific type of a vehicle. They will sit on
the back seat, for example, of this vehicle and they would have ... in
addition to the shaded windows, they will have to pull down curtains
and they snap those curtains on the bottom, to make sure nobody can
see anything outside this vehicle while they're driven around.


This is even government officials [who] are not allowed to see this
kind of training?

Yes. At the very highest level, they cannot see this training.


What kind of training went on, and who was being trained?

Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on
assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of
buses, public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of
operations related to terrorism.


The people being trained were Iraqis in one group, and non-Iraqis, or
foreign nationals, in another?

Non-Iraqis were trained separately from us. There were strict orders
not to meet with them and not to talk to them. And even when they
conduct their training, their training has to occur at times different
from the times when we conduct the Iraqis our own training.

And they trained people to hijack airplanes?

Yes.


For what purpose?

... It has been said openly in the media and even to us, from the
highest command, that the purpose of establishing Saddam's fighters is
to attack American targets and American interests. This is known.
There's no doubt about it.

All this training is directed towards attacking American targets, and
American interests. The training does not only include hijacking of
planes and sabotage. ... Some other people were trained to do
parachuting. Some other areas were training on how to penetrate enemy
lines and get information from behind enemy lines. But it's all for
the general concept of hitting and attacking American targets and
American interests.
Lord Samuel
2004-04-25 06:16:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:27:26 -0400, styron
Post by styron
the camp near
Salman Pak had been built not for terrorism training but for
counter-terrorism training
Yo, terrorist, how many planes do you think were ever hijacked in
Iraq?

You bastard, you will be interviewed soon.
styron
2004-04-25 09:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Samuel
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:27:26 -0400, styron
Post by styron
the camp near
Salman Pak had been built not for terrorism training but for
counter-terrorism training
Yo, terrorist, how many planes do you think were ever hijacked in
Iraq?
You bastard, you will be interviewed soon.
"In 1986, an Iraqi airliner was seized by pro-Iranian extremists and
crashed, after a hand grenade was triggered, killing at least sixty-five
people. (At the time, Iran and Iraq were at war, and America favored
Iraq.) Iraq then sought assistance from the West, and got what it wanted
from Britain’s MI6."

Newsweek - May 12, 2003

"We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September
the 11th."

George Bush - Sept. 17, 2003
Lord Samuel
2004-04-25 17:32:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 05:04:45 -0400, styron
Post by A. Dulles Soberes
"We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September
the 11th."
George Bush - Sept. 17, 2003
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp?pg=2
* Iraqi defectors had been saying for years that Saddam's regime
trained "non-Iraqi Arab terrorists" at a camp in Salman Pak, south of
Baghdad. U.N. inspectors had confirmed the camp's existence, including
the presence of a Boeing 707. Defectors say the plane was used to
train hijackers; the Iraqi regime said it was used in counterterrorism
training. Sabah Khodada, a captain in the Iraqi Army, worked at Salman
Pak. In October 2001, he told PBS's "Frontline" about what went on
there. "Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on
assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of
buses, public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of
operations related to terrorism. . . . All this training is directly
toward attacking American targets, and American interests."

* On February 13, 2003, the government of the Philippines asked Hisham
al Hussein, the second secretary of the Iraqi embassy in Manila, to
leave the country. According to telephone records obtained by
Philippine intelligence, Hussein had been in frequent contact with two
leaders of Abu Sayyaf, an al Qaeda affiliate in South Asia,
immediately before and immediately after they detonated a bomb in
Zamboanga City. That attack killed two Filipinos and an American
Special Forces soldier and injured several others. Hussein left the
Philippines for Iraq after he was "PNG'd"--declared persona non
grata--by the Philippine government and has not been heard from since.

According to a report in the Christian Science Monitor, an Abu Sayyaf
leader who planned the attack bragged on television a month after the
bombing that Iraq had contacted him about conducting joint operations.
Philippine intelligence officials were initially skeptical of his
boasting, but after finding the telephone records they believed him.

* No fewer than five high-ranking Czech officials have publicly
confirmed that Mohammed Atta, the lead September 11 hijacker, met with
Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence officer working at
the Iraqi embassy, in Prague five months before the hijacking. Media
leaks here and in the Czech Republic have called into question whether
Atta was in Prague on the key dates--between April 4 and April 11,
2001. And several high-ranking administration officials are "agnostic"
as to whether the meeting took place. Still, the public position of
the Czech government to this day is that it did.

That assertion should be seen in the context of Atta's curious
stop-off in Prague the previous spring, as he traveled to the United
States. Atta flew to Prague from Germany on May 30, 2000, but did not
have a valid visa and was denied entry. He returned to Germany,
obtained the proper paperwork, and took a bus back to Prague. One day
later, he left for the United States.

Ansar al-Islam--the al Qaeda cell formed in June 2001 that operated
out of northern Iraq before the war, notably attacking Kurdish enemies
of Saddam--has stepped up its activities elsewhere in the country. In
some cases, say national security officials, Ansar is joining with
remnants of Saddam's regime to attack Americans and nongovernmental
organizations working in Iraq. There is some reporting, unconfirmed at
this point, that the recent bombing of the U.N. headquarters was the
result of a joint operation between Baathists and Ansar al-Islam.

And there are reports of more direct links between the Iraqi regime
and bin Laden. Farouk Hijazi, former Iraqi ambassador to Turkey and
Saddam's longtime outreach agent to Islamic fundamentalists, has been
captured. In his initial interrogations, Hijazi admitted meeting with
senior al Qaeda leaders at Saddam's behest in 1994. According to
administration officials familiar with his questioning, he has
subsequently admitted additional contacts, including a meeting in late
1997.
ZZBunker
2004-04-25 05:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH
These, friends, are examples of GIC (global ignorance creep)! The
subject claims "facts" but I claim it's just plain GIC!
We know war isn't, in itself, a good thing. It happens when peaceful
means of working things out are fruitful. It's a product of mankind's
weakness. It is, however, absolutely necessary in order to attain and
maintain the security of a nation and the liberty that goes with it.
<snip>
Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism. The 9/11
terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. The ~10,000 women, children, & old
men victims were all innocent people who did nothing to hurt us. The
Bush regime justified the invasion with bad information. We should
apologize, try to pay for our errors, and get the hell out.
War is very profitable for some Americans who worship money and power.
That's why we have it. We have lots of War offices, but no Peace
offices. Peace won't feed greedy billionaires. Sadly the Iraqi people
are being terrorized by US troops - so that some american jerks can
have more money and power.
During WW2, the vast majority of the German people were totally
unaware of the Nazi's atrocities against the Jews. In 2003-4, most
Amercans are totally unaware of the US militaries atrocities against
the Iraqis.
As the soldiers know, anything that would cause extreme embarrassment
to the US Gov't if known by people without an 'official need to know'
- is classified as TOP SECRET.
That not how it works. *SECRET* is an official need to know.
TOP SECRET is a need to read NAZI and Commie documents.


So, hiding organized crimes against
Post by RH
humanity is legal. Exposing the crimes would be illegal. The Nazi's
did the same thing. Calling the crimes necessary is another lie. Once
the lies start things go downhill. The American people are better
than the dogs that are in leadership roles. They deserve the truth.
Only the truth will set us free from war, and bloodthirsty puppets
like Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld.
ZZBunker
2004-04-25 22:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZZBunker
Post by RH
These, friends, are examples of GIC (global ignorance creep)! The
subject claims "facts" but I claim it's just plain GIC!
We know war isn't, in itself, a good thing. It happens when peaceful
means of working things out are fruitful. It's a product of mankind's
weakness. It is, however, absolutely necessary in order to attain and
maintain the security of a nation and the liberty that goes with it.
<snip>
Sadam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or any terrorism. The 9/11
terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. The ~10,000 women, children, & old
men victims were all innocent people who did nothing to hurt us. The
Bush regime justified the invasion with bad information. We should
apologize, try to pay for our errors, and get the hell out.
War is very profitable for some Americans who worship money and power.
That's why we have it. We have lots of War offices, but no Peace
offices. Peace won't feed greedy billionaires. Sadly the Iraqi people
are being terrorized by US troops - so that some american jerks can
have more money and power.
During WW2, the vast majority of the German people were totally
unaware of the Nazi's atrocities against the Jews. In 2003-4, most
Amercans are totally unaware of the US militaries atrocities against
the Iraqis.
As the soldiers know, anything that would cause extreme embarrassment
to the US Gov't if known by people without an 'official need to know'
- is classified as TOP SECRET.
That not how it works. *SECRET* is an official need to know.
TOP SECRET is a need to read NAZI and Commie documents.
The newest security classifications are:

Black Secret is if you know somebody that knows somebody
that lives in Wyoming.
Red Secret is if you know somebody that knows somebody
that lives in California.
Green Secret is if you know somebody that knows somebody
that lives in New York.
Orange Secret is of you know somebody that knows somebody
that lives in Florida.
White Secret is if you know somebody that knows somebody
that knows somebody who lives in Anartica.
Pastel Secret is if you know how to drive a
Mercedes Limo.
Post by ZZBunker
So, hiding organized crimes against
Post by RH
humanity is legal. Exposing the crimes would be illegal. The Nazi's
did the same thing. Calling the crimes necessary is another lie. Once
the lies start things go downhill. The American people are better
than the dogs that are in leadership roles. They deserve the truth.
Only the truth will set us free from war, and bloodthirsty puppets
like Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld.
RH
2004-04-25 02:53:13 UTC
Permalink
"... one thing that [has] remained constant is the self-righteousness
of the American public discourse. We're back to faulting the natives
for their stubborn refusal to understand the purity of our hearts. And
hell hasn't seen the wrath of a heart-broken colonialist. Iraqis must
learn now, as did Native Americans, African slaves, Vietnamese and
Palestinian peasants, and many others, that ingratitude is a capital
offense." http://thirdcoastactivist.org/
Being a member of the Bush regime means never having to say you're sorry.
I think it has to do with Bush's bizarre belief that he's on a mission from
God.
Gun Woman
2004-04-25 03:21:01 UTC
Permalink
All US citizens who are elgible to vote should be required to see the
pictures at the following two sites, so that they'll know what their
politicians have done with their (and future generations) tax
dollars.
Pictures of Destruction in Iraq
...

Anti U.S. propaganda. Go to hell Osama!
--
Gun Woman
Armed and safer
Waiting for help from 911 could take the rest of your life.
Soren Larsen
2004-05-03 13:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by K***@home.com
Bush and Rummy want to keep the body count of dead Americans down for the rest
of April.
Anyone want to bet against this?
No :-)

Cheers
Soren Larsen
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